In Chapter 11 of “When to Disobey,” Pierre Viret shows how a Christian appeals to the magistrate, how he seeks protection while at the same time serving God. He frames the discussion in this way; “If you are in a country in which someone does you an injury, you can have recourse to the magistrate of the place if the matter is worthy of it and if it requires it, and if you can do this by honest means without dishonoring God and without violating the love you owe to your neighbor.”

Well, welcome to the Church and Family Life podcast. Church and Family Life exists to proclaim the sufficiency of Scripture, And of course we are now discussing the matters that are in this book, when to disobey case studies and tyranny, insurrection, and obedience to God. And we're discussing chapter 11 in this book, which is titled, Using the Magistrate for Good, and it really is an argument for thoughtful, careful, faithful use of the means that we're given when attacked or constrained in a way that we would think is unbiblical. And so we have Jason Dome. Hey, Jason, here we go again.

We've got a really helpful chapter ahead of us. Really helpful chapter. Jason was telling me that at the beginning is that he's written a book called When to Disobey for His Children. And you open the book and there's no writing in it. In other words, there's no occasions where you can disobey your dad.

So anyway, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about this book, When to Disobey. There's also a study guide to help walk through it. We're really hoping people will study this book and understand how they might engage the situations that have come to them. And it's also a delight to have Rob McCurley with us again.

Hey, Rob, welcome. Thank you. Good to be with you. Yes, thank you so much for joining us. So, this chapter, of course, has to do with how believers ought to appeal to civil magistrates, how we seek protection, how we speak, various matters like that.

I like Verre's framing of this on page 138. He says, if you are in a country in which someone does you injury, I thought, I just, I thought, there you go. You never were, you might live in a country like that and you have recourse. He says, you have recourse. I thought that was an important statement.

He's talking about recourse and the various methodologies of recourse. I hope we'll be able to multiply various instruments of recourse that we have before the civil magistrate without violating love for God or a neighbor. Well, I'm just quoting Viré. He says, you know, these things can be done, quote, without violating the love you owe to your neighbor. So that's the whole thing.

Okay, so let's throw it open. I think we begin where he begins. We begin with biblical examples. So let's start talking about the biblical examples that Viree cites to deal with this. So, what comes to mind?

Yeah, I think if I were to distill the main point of the chapter, Vire is basically saying that the Christian should employ lawful means to a lawful end. So the lawful end is justice, truth, and so on. And the lawful means can be appealing to and helping a magistrate actually do what God has called them to do. So that's a lawful means toward the end of getting justice or truth. So the examples that he draws from scripture kind of undergird and highlight that basic point that even when under a magistrate that is not perfectly conformed to the design and functions that God's given it, you can still utilize the magistrate in a lawful way that's in keeping with God's design to secure an end of justice and truth, and so on.

So, he, you know, he starts with Paul, and there's several examples that are there from Paul. So here's one of the examples from the chapter I think that you're referencing, and it's Paul and Silas in Philippi. They've been beaten. They've been imprisoned. And so I'll just pick up there in Acts chapter 16 beginning in verse 35, when it was day the magistrate sent the officers saying, let those men go.

So the keeper of the prison reported these words to Paul saying, the magistrates have sent to let you go, now therefore depart and go in peace. But Paul said to them, they have beaten us openly, uncondemned Romans, and have thrown us into prison, and now do they put us out secretly? No indeed, let them come out themselves and get us out." And the officers told these words to the magistrates, and they were afraid when they heard that they were Romans. Then they came and pleaded with them and brought them out and asked them to depart from the city. So Paul and Silas don't take their unjust beating quietly.

They actually call out the magistrates for doing what it was unlawful for them to do. Magistrates don't always act lawfully, and citizens usually have some sort of rights to assert when that happens. You know, it's interesting, you bring to mind different situations we've had here in front of abortion clinics and things like that. Often, the police don't know the law, And how you explain that to them, it really matters. You can act like a cowboy and a donkey when you explain it to them, or you can actually quote the law.

And we've actually carried the law with us in different circumstances, especially in the last year and a half we have. So that's what the apostle did. He was citing his rights given to him by the state. Yeah, That's true. And what applies to the magistrate applies to everyone, right?

They're under law like everyone else and they've made commitments to certain things and it's appropriate to call them to those commitments. I mean, you can take an extreme analogy and say you are a soldier and you're a prisoner of war and you're put into a concentration camp or a missionary put into a concentration camp. You go to that circumstance, you go into those circumstances and they say, okay, here's the deal, here are the rules for how this concentration camp go. If you're sick, you get to go to the infirmary, you get three meals a day, whatever. And even though you might not be happy with those that are in authority at the concentration camp, it would be legitimate to say, my friend is sick and they're still making him work, and your rules say he should go to the infirmary, where we haven't had all three meals today, or whatever.

So it kind of illustrates the principle of the appropriateness of appealing, in our case, to the magistrate. In Verre's book, the point is to the magistrate on terms that they've agreed to, which is the point that he's highlighting from Acts. Pete I think by far this is my favorite example. Jared Yeah. Pete And Verray spends a lot of time on it in the chapter.

It comes from Acts chapter 23. Paul has been accused and he's been brought before the Sanhedrin, the Jewish ruling council. I'll pick it up in chapter 23, verse 6. But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee, concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead, I am being judged." And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. For Sadducees say that there is no resurrection and no angel or spirit, but the Pharisees confess both.

Then there arose a loud outcry, and the scribes of the Pharisees party arose and protested, saying, we find no evil in this man. But if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him, Let us not fight against God. Now when there arose a great dissension, the commander, fearing lest Paul might be pulled to pieces by them, commanded the soldiers to go down and take him by force from among them and bring him into the barracks." So what happens here is Paul can tell there's no justice to be had among these men. And so he actually is aware of dissension between them. He doesn't create the dissension, but he actually exploits it for his own cause, which is a good cause.

And so, Verre spends a lot of time talking about how and why that's legitimate. You know, Paul was on top of the news. You know, he understood how people were thinking. And I think that's important. You know, particularly pastors should have some idea of what the thinking is out there as they face it.

And Paul was very well aware, and he just used it so deftly, And it was very helpful. And I would say that might be the perfect example of an application of what Jesus said to his disciples, be as wise as serpents, but innocence as does. Paul is not sinning in any way here in this text, but he really is being as wise as a serpent in exploiting the dissensions of his opponents. You see our Lord doing the same thing. In the Gospels, they come to him and say, you know, by what authority do you do these things?

And he says, well, let me ask you a question first. And then he puts John's baptism to them, right? And thereby sticking them on the horns of a dilemma. So he's using a similar tactic. They know Jesus has read the situation well, and he knows that they know that if they say, Oh, you know, John's baptism wasn't from God, that the crowds are going to be upset with them.

And that if they say it is from God, then he's going to say, why didn't you listen to what John the Baptist said? So it's, you know, our Lord is using a similar tactic in that circumstance. You know, Verre uses one of my favorite stories in the book of Acts, where the 40 assassins, you know, they, they go on a hunger strike and they're, they're, they're going to, they're not going to eat until Paul is dead. And Paul's nephew, you know, I just picture of this little boy, you know, kind of under the radar screen in the crowd and he hears about the plot. And he goes to his uncle, tells him the plot.

But what does his uncle do? His uncle doesn't run to the magistrate. He sends this boy to Lysias to tell him what's going on and he gets protection and Vire talks about, I love the way he described it. So the civil magistrate protected Paul well mounted and well armed, and they escort him in the dead of night to Caesarea to keep him safe. But, you know, Paul was, he was just using the things that had happened wisely, and the Lord really blessed it that way.

So, I thought one of the interesting things from the chapter was when Veré undertakes the topic, what happens if an appeal of yours gets your opponents into trouble? Have you sinned against your opponents now because they're in trouble with the magistrate. So I just want to read a little of Veré's words, starting on the bottom of 138. For you do not desire evil upon your enemy, but rather his amendment and his good. In other words, it's not vindictiveness that has sent you to the magistrate.

Thus it is not you who has worked vengeance but God, for when you deliver vengeance to the magistrate you return it to God who ordained him the magistrate to do this work and this end. And then he says this, but when it must be that either you suffer from him unjustly, your adversary unjustly, or that he suffers justly from the magistrate, you are not bound to abandon your cause for his wicked one and give more favor to his wicked cause than to your just one. Since you only employ the means that God has given you, indeed you only employ it by constraint and by the importunity of your enemy who has forced you to employ such a remedy." I thought it was just a helpful way to undertake that topic. Simple example. Yeah, a simple example is you look out your window and someone is driving away with your vehicle, with your car, right?

They've stole your car. So you call the police and to fetch the thief, right? That's an appropriate use of means in encouraging the magistrate who's to punish evil to go catch the robber. And he's the one who's obviously the thief is the one who's guilty, and has brought that on himself, not you, by calling the magistrate. So it's an appropriate use of the magistrate to uphold justice.

And Verre would say in that case, you haven't taken vengeance on the thief. It was actually the magistrate who was appointed by God who took vengeance, so God took the vengeance. So you've not been in violation of the principle that vengeance is God's. Right. You know, also in these examples that Verrae gives, we discover Paul doesn't do the same thing every time.

You know, he brings up the matter in Acts 19 with the riot in Ephesus, where Demetrius, the silversmith, he finally gets that these guys are going to really mess up my business. People are going to quit buying because all these, they're burning their amulets, their, you know, their magic books. And so he's in an uproar. And so there are probably 20,000 people in the amphitheater and they're screaming, you know, Great is Diana of the Ephesians for two hours. The crowd is totally out of control, and a lot of them don't even know why they're there.

So instead of going into that situation, Verre just makes the apostle Paul at the council of his brethren did not go in. And so the crowd was out of control. I think Verre's point is there are certain situations that maybe might not be appropriate to open your mouth. That's the idea. So there's no cookie cutter, I think, is one of the things that he's trying to say.

So any other, what are some other matters here? He, you know, he, He talks about this situation where he sets the parties against one another. And he says, they bore such a love for each other as do dogs and cats. And he made use of their discord. So he kind of set them on one another.

It's very, very insightful. So what are some other examples in Scripture? 05.00 Well, he also says that sometimes that you have the right to appeal to the place where you think you'll actually get justice. And he uses the example of Paul actually appealing to pagan Romans because he knows he's more likely to get justice there than he is among the Jews, and that it wasn't wrong for him to go outside the professing people of God to get justice, he went where he could get it. Right.

That was interesting. Pick your judge, if you can. Yeah, what would be a modern example? If there were, like we have in South Carolina, on the statute books, a prohibition of employers being able to force their employees to work on the Lord's Day for matters that are not necessity and mercy. If the employer is trying to force a Christian to work on the Lord's Day, rather than appealing to the upper echelon of the company where they might not get heard because of their vested interests, they could appeal to the magistrate and say, look, according to your own statutes, obviously according to God's law, there's to be a measure of protection here.

And ironically, the misuse of religious freedom could be spun in the defense of proper use of religious freedom and upholding the right of a Christian to not work on the Lord's Day. So, I mean, that might be an example. Well, yeah, here's another example. Sexual exploitation that happens within a church structure, and the church structure actually wanting to keep that in house. No, the people in question have the right to appeal to the civil magistrate outside, and in fact, they're probably required by law to do so and they should do so.

Yeah, another example that's fairly common, you know, attorneys will try to find the best place to try to have a trial because of the laws in that place, depending on the kind of infraction, if it's possible to try it in various places. So he gives examples of Daniel, how he responded, of Ezra, of Nehemiah, of Mordecai, and Esther, And he doesn't explain them, but those are great studies in themselves of how they appealed to the civil magistrate. It's very similar to what we see in the Apostle Paul. You don't really see much difference in the style or the category that these examples do. You know, he addresses motives, why are you doing it?

Not for vengeance. So he is really appealing to his readers to examine their hearts for why they're making this appeal. And there are various sort of lawful means. He mentions using concealed speech. We can sometimes use concealed speech when we see that it in no way will be profitable to speak the truth openly.

And he uses Paul as an example. He doesn't... Paul leaves out matters of Christ. He's concealing that matter for his own purposes. Verre is going to encourage us to beware of lying.

And rather, you know, make divisions of the enemies of the truth rather than, you know, to lie. We see he, we can flee as well. So there are various means that that Verre brings out. Another one that Verre doesn't speak about is hiring an attorney. You know, in Titus 3.13, it seems fairly clear Paul knew how to use the law, and he had a personal lawyer, or at least he called for Zenos the lawyer, send Zenos the lawyer and Apollos on their journey with haste that they may lack nothing.

In other words, they need to get here. We don't know what the background is there, but Paul wanted his attorney there for some reason. So there are various means of appeal and things like that. So, unprofitable means would be lack of knowledge, lack of self-control, being driven by fear. Fear never helps when we're making appeals, vengeful motives.

Those are sort of the cautions that he brings as we bring these things to bear. So any final comments? Maybe, Jason, why don't you just kind of give sort of some application or final thoughts, and then same Rob with you, and then we'll wind it up. Yeah, I think the overarching banner is that it is not improper or unbiblical or ungodly at all for Christians to pull the levers that are afforded to them by whatever system of government that they're under. I think there's a thought that you just uniquely go along with whatever injustices are happening without using the recourses that have been afforded to you.

And that's actually not the biblical testimony at all. Right. And what you say reminds me of Romans 13. You know, many evangelicals believe that Romans 13 just means that you absolutely capitulate to everything, and you just keep your mouth shut and you don't move. This kind of contradicts that.

We actually have a voice and we have means. Rob, what about you? Yeah, I think the main thing is that the Lord is the one who fills the heavens and occupies the space of the believers heart and focus so our eye is on him and our desires to uphold his glory his cause and therefore we will employ all of the means that are lawful to the end of seeing His glory set forth, His kingdom advanced, and so forth. So V. Ray is just putting kind of details to what that looks like in this particular circumstance.

Amen. That's a good framework. That's great. Yep. Okay, well, thank you for joining us on the Church and Family Life podcast.

And so now you know what to do if you live in a country where you get assaulted by the civil government or others, you know what to do. Viray has told us. So praise the Lord for Godly wisdom. We'll see you next time. To ChurchandFamilyLife.com.

See you next Monday for our next broadcast of the Church and Family Life podcast.