Join us with Brian Borgman to discuss chapter 10 in “When to Disobey,” under the chapter title, “How the Sheep will Vanquish Wolves.” Viret tells us things that are contrary to human wisdom. He unveils a lie we often embrace when dealing with corrupt civil governments.

Well, welcome to the Church and Family Life podcast. Church and Family Life exists to proclaim the sufficiency of Scripture, and so I have with me Jason Dome. Jason, we get to do this again, proclaim the sufficiency of scripture for crazy times. Let's do it. Let's do it.

And Brian Borgman from Grace Community Church in Minden, Nevada. Welcome. Thank you. It's good to be here. You know, Brian, I'm a little jealous.

You know, I know where you live. And like here down in the lowlands, you know, the hot Southern North Carolina humidity bog, you are in almost paradise out there in the Sierras. I love the Sierra Mountain Range. I spent a lot of time out there growing up. I actually took Jason there one time.

I took him to Mammoth where I spent my childhood. So anyway, so we're here to discuss chapter 10 of When to Disobey, Case Studies and Tyranny, Insurrection and Obedience to God. And I'll confess, this is my favorite chapter. When I first read it, I thought, oh man, this is just so helpful. But it's a letter that Viré wrote to Admiral Gaspard Coligny.

And he is talking about the upheaval that's upon them, the very difficult, challenging times. And he brings us to what is probably one of the most important truths about the Christian life, and that there is that there are God's ways and there are man's ways. And he writes this to really deliver his readers from man's ways of doing things, to think in a worldly way. And of course, the most wonderful thing in the world is to be moved away from the world's ways. They're always harmful.

And so, Verre, he is coming off of Matthew 5, the meek shall inherit the earth. And he draws this sharp contrast to that way of thinking and living. So it's a call to humility. And of course, you know, this is my greatest need, and I'm sure the need of the whole church. So let's just bat this around.

He opens it up talking about the paradox. And I really appreciated that he used that word paradox. You know, a paradox is something that seems absurd. It seems out of place. It seems so contradictory to reality.

But it's true. So Scott, Let's let Verre frame the discussion. I have just a sprinkling of a few sentences from the first pages. It just sort of gives Verre in his own language here. He says, David and Jesus Christ call meek and humble, peaceful men who are not easily irritated and who don't become angry and savage when faced with a wrong or injury, but to the contrary are instead quick to endure all things patiently rather than render the same and avenge themselves on those who do them wrong.

He says the common proverb says, if you act like sheep, you will be eaten by a wolf, and by overlooking an old injury, you are merely inviting a new one. And then he says, thus they think it's much better and much safer, according to human judgment, to become a wolf rather than a sheep when dealing with wolves. And So he talks about Christians bearing their teeth as if they're a wolf when faced with wolves is sort of the fight fire with fire argument. Yeah, I love that little proverb that you quoted. That's a great misnomer.

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that struck me was the appeal to, obviously the Christians in Verre's time must have had the attitude of, we better be like wolves or we're going to be eaten, you know, and to have this pastor actually say, you know, hey, as Christians, we take the way of the lamb. Our way is not their way. And so it was really refreshing to me.

It warms your heart, right? Yeah, and in Revelation, the multitude are before the throne and the lamb, the lamb. And he's calling us to be like the lamb, our lamb, the lamb of God. And he talks about the reality of our flesh, and that is that we want to strike back. He says that we're easily irritated, we become angry, and he says savage when faced with wrong or injury.

And You know, when the people in our churches, you know, encounter the kind of treatment they might get from the civil government, we have such a duty to talk them off the ledge and to stop railing and start trusting and recognize that the Lamb of God is the ruler of it all. He's not only lamb, He's shepherd. And so Verre says that the central problem with making yourself a wolf is that Jesus only shepherds sheep. So when you make yourself into a wolf, you are taking yourself out underneath the shepherding. And on page, what page is it?

129, he says, it's the power and the weapons of the shepherd that matters. So you don't have to bury your teeth. You don't have to acquire teeth because it's the power and the weapons of the shepherd that matter. So, you don't have to bury your teeth. You don't have to acquire teeth because it's the power and the weapons of the shepherd that matters and that protects the sheep.

The sheep aren't self-protecting animals at all. It's the shepherd who undertakes their defense. Yeah, it's almost like vengeance is mine, says, you don't need to do anything. It's mine. I'll take care of this.

I have the weapons. Yeah, I think one of the passages that stood out to me the most is right after the one you just quoted, and I have it highlighted in two different ways. For upon him depends the victory. His sheep will obtain victory through his strength and power, not by disguising themselves and imitating the wolves, but by always remaining sheep who overcome the strength of the wolves by their weakness and who by their humility and meekness conquer their cruelty and rage. And it's just such a powerful reminder that the Christian church, we, you know, we conquer through suffering.

None of this makes sense to the world, but the idea of us turning the other cheek, the idea of us following our good shepherd, relying on him, knowing that he is the one that's got the power and the strength and that it's in our weakness that he's made that we're made strong through him is actually just a great reminder to us because you know in this political climate you know there there really is a temptation to fight fire with fire and to use the weapons of this world. And what a great reminder that we conquer through weakness because we're followers of the Good Shepherd. Amen. You know this proverb, if you act like sheep, you'll be eaten by a wolf. Maybe it should be turned around.

If you act like sheep, your shepherd will kill that wolf. I think that's what he's saying. At the bottom of 130, he compares the wolves with the sheep and the real outlook. He says this, if we desire to compare the violent, abusive, aggressive, riotous, wrathful, impatient, inflexible, vindictive, and furious with the moderate, gentle, meek, peaceful, compliant, patient, accommodating, and humble, it would be easy to see which of them live longer on the earth and which enjoy their lives in greater peace and greater contentment of body and mind. It's really encouraging believers to take the medium and long view and know that God is sovereign and that you can actually see that wolves don't live long on the earth.

Wolves have their time, but their time comes and goes much more quickly than the meek. You know, he makes the point that it was the Lord who sent the sheep to be among the wolves. And he quotes Matthew 10-16, you know, Behold I send you out as sheep among wolves or in the midst of wolves. And of course he makes the point that it was the shepherd that sent them, it was the ruler of the kings of the earth that sent them, so he'll take care of them on their journey. And he says He sends them in such a way that he always maintains their care, and I love this part, and is always right beside them, and always guards and protects them in the midst of the cruellest and fiercest wolves in the world.

So he uses this truth that it was the Lord that sent the sheep out, and it's the Lord who will sustain them. And we can always trust in that. Yeah, that struck me too when I read that, the fact that, and of course it reveals Verre's biblical insight, right, to focus on the fact that the shepherd sends us into the midst of the wolves. He says, he doesn't merely say, go out like sheep in the midst of the wolves, he actually sends us. And that means that there's a mission, right, for the sheep among this world filled with wolves.

You know, he makes the contrast pretty vivid about the difference between the sheep and the wolf. And the, you know, the wolves are combatant. They're armed with cruelty. That's their tool. That's their weapon, cruelty, which is totally contrary to the whole Christian life.

But he keeps setting the sheep and the wolves across from one another and comparing. And you really, you have this sense of peace, the sense of protection. And then you have, on the other hand with wolves, you have this desperate desire, you know, to destroy and what kind of life do you want to live? You know, who do you want to be in the story? And I think he's setting those across from one another to try to convince his readers to just settle down.

Yeah. I love his quotation of Psalm 37. It's a Psalm of David, and it goes right to the point of the chapter, Psalm 37, 12 through 15. The wicked plots against the just and gnashes at him with his teeth. The Lord laughs at him, for he sees that his day is coming.

The wicked have drawn the sword and have bent their bow to cast down the poor and needy, to slay those who are of upright conduct. Their sword shall enter their own heart and their bows shall be broken." So, David, the psalmist here is talking about the expectation of the wicked, of crushing the just into powder, but God is just laughing because he knows the real end, because he controls the real end. To me, the comfort, you know, my wife and I, we talk obviously a lot about the things that are going on. And there's a part of the things that are happening all around us that seems sad and grievous and even scary. And the sadness of looking at the world that my grandkids were growing up in compared to the world that I grew up in and that feeling of loss and even that feeling of really being threatened by a wicked world in a way that I've never experienced in my lifetime.

And this chapter, it almost just, It just thrusts upon your heart. These are the times in which we trust in the Lord and it is that trust, that confidence that actually gives us the courage to be in the midst of the wolves knowing that our King laughs at all of their machinations, all of their weapons, all of their attempts to trample the sheep under their feet. He just laughs and he protects us and he overcomes. And that's when you trust him. And so we've had a lot of heart-to-heart talks over these last 15, 16 months.

And it's like, honey, it's times like these that is trusting the Lord that really counts. He also brings up promises to support that, what you just said. He quotes Psalm 37, for a little while and the wicked will be no more. He offers lots of counterpoints to the fear. And then he says we shouldn't so hastily judge the wicked who prosper.

And when I read that I thought about, you know, the biggest technology companies in the world are waging war against Christian morality and Christian jurisdictions and the church. It's remarkable. The wealthiest on the planet are in an all-out attack against the church of Jesus. And so he says, don't too hastily judge them. And he says, don't forget that vast changes occur between morning and evening.

You know, he will bring them down. I mean, the book of Revelation, you know, the world economy loses its value in an hour. It's figurative. In other words, fast, like really fast. So God will do the change up any time He wants.

But He's encouraging His readers not to worry about the wealth and the power of the wicked because they don't actually hold all the power. It looks like they do, but they don't. Yeah, I thought that that section had a wonderful Psalm 73 feel to it. Don't envy the prosperity of the wicked. It is going to go away fast and you have these precious promises.

You have the Lord himself. He's your inheritance. He's your portion. And teaser portion. You know, he also, he says, you know, even when the wicked are the most prosperous, they're not nearly as happy as the humble.

I love that part. He said, they don't have the peace or the rest or the pleasure, I'm quoting, as the good, meek, humble, and patient have in their times of greatest adversity. So he says, the ones who love the Lord in their worst situation are happier than the wicked when they are in high cotton. So, amen. He quotes Psalm 31, be of good courage and he shall strengthen your heart, All ye that hope in the Lord." He quotes Paul in Romans 5, we glory in tribulations knowing that tribulation worketh patience and patience experience and experience hope and hope maketh not ashamed because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given to us." So, Verre was a very, he was a good pastor.

Amen. He really drew people to the living water, to the very best way of thinking and feeling, calling people out of their rage, calling them out of their worry, you know, calling them out of their toughness, and just calling them to trust God. Scott and Brian, the wolf and the sheep are such polar opposites, there's really no way to straddle. How can you hedge your bets between wolves and sheep? You really have to pick what you believe to be true and then pursue that.

And so I'm thankful for Veres giving us confidence to exhale, be sheep, trust the shepherd, rest in the shepherd. Mm-hmm. You know, it's interesting in the Book of Revelation, the word lamb appears, I forgot how many times, a couple of dozen times, and it's always framed in the diminutive form, the little sheep, the little lamb, not the big lamb. Jesus talks about the big lamb. John talks about the little lamb and he's ruling.

He is the ruler, The little lamb, the little baby lamb, is the one who's destroying the wicked. He's the one that's throwing the devil into his chamber forever. It's the little lamb. The tables are completely turned in the kingdom of heaven. What doesn't look strong is, and that's the way that God wired the world.

Amen. Amen. So, okay, any final thoughts here? This is such a sweet chapter. What do you want to say to people who are listening to this?

Well, for me, as I read it, I did feel a sense of being challenged as a pastor, because, you know, you have people in your congregation and some are scared and some are just angry. Some are angry about the way things are going and they're angry about lockdowns and they're angry about the administration and they're angry about all these things. And the challenge that really came to me in chapter 10 was, yes, you tell people, be faithful. You tell people persevere. You tell people, continue to trust the Lord.

But am I actually telling them, be the sheep that God has called you to be? And of course, that's not going to be, you know, a really great message. I mean, we live in Nevada, we're surrounded by sheep, right? Nobody admires sheep. We have sheep and cattle everywhere.

Better to be a big bull than some little sheep, you know? And yet it reminds me just of that message of as followers of Jesus, we take the way of the lamb, the way of meekness, the way of peace, the way of love. And it's through those things that we conquer in Him. The phrase that sticks out to me out of the whole chapter is, Jesus only shepherds sheep. To me, that's the winning argument.

If that's what it takes to have Jesus as shepherd, then sheep it is. Count me in. That's so good. Well, this was such an encouraging chapter, and I pray the Lord will help us all to find ourselves as wise as serpents, gentle as doves, and like the lamb who was slain, and to look to Him for all of our help and to allow all of His constellations to be ours in all of this, because He is the one who sent us. He's the one who's ordered all of our steps.

He's hemmed us in behind and before. He's laid His hand upon us. There's nowhere we can go away from His Spirit. And so, we don't have to be like wolves. We can be like the lamb.

So, brothers, thanks. Amen. Thank you. What a blessing. What a blessing.

Well, thank you for joining us on the Church and Family Life podcast. We'll see you next time. See you next Monday for our next broadcast of the Church and Family Life podcast.