What are the principles and commands of God that guide our thoughts about insurrection against tyrannical governments? Our discussion surrounds Pierre Viret's counsel to churches tempted to rise up in the face of harsh tyrants.

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Church and Family Life is dedicated to the declaration of the sufficiency of scripture and so we want to do that today in a particular issue and that is our relationship with the civil government and coming off of a book that we published called when to disobey I'm holding up the study guide for this book here, Pierre Viret was a wonderful counselor to Christians in the reformation era under difficult governments waging various kinds of war against the church and so we're doing these just to be an assistance to those who might be studying the book we're going to discuss chapters three and four in this discussion here Chapter three's focus is really a warning against insurrection and rebellion, and he talks about the whole matter of taking up arms, and then in the next chapter, in chapter four, he deals with the question of when can Christians wage war or take up arms and he deals with a lot of details there. So we're going to be dealing with these two chapters in this podcast. And so Jason, we're delighted to have these guys join us to talk about this. It's great to have two brothers in the Lord with us.

There you go. Yeah. And not that far away, we've got Gavin Beers who's just down the road in Mebon Cal North Carolina at Cornerstone Presbyterian Church Gavin thank you for joining us. It's going to be with you again, Scott. It's been a joy to talk about these things over the months.

And I don't think we're done. Doesn't appear to be. Yeah. And Rob McCurley from Greenville Presbyterian Church in Greenville, South Carolina. Rob, thanks for joining us.

I've heard you preach on some of this stuff and been very thankful for the perspectives you've been communicating. So welcome. Thank you. It's a joy to be with you. Thank you so much.

So, in this first chapter that we're dealing with, Verrey is really waging war against pragmatism. He's waging war against the whole idea that the ends justify the means and gives, you know, helpful counsel, I think, about insurrection and rebellion. And I think it's an important matter right now. I don't know how many people I have heard ask the question, are we headed for a civil war in the United States of America? I've heard it on broadcasts.

I've had people ask me that question. And so, you know, strangely enough, that's even a question, right? It wasn't a question 18 months ago. It's a question today. So I really pray that this is this is helpful counsel for us.

� is instructing Christians who desire to wage war to think carefully about it. So let's just begin this discussion. You know, one of the things that he opens up with is just how careful we should be not to hinder the Gospel and he speaks, you know, vividly about the dangers of insurrection, so let's just talk about that. What is he saying to these people about the dangers of insurrection? Well, he's conscious of the importance for the church to maintain its witness in the world and it seems to me that he he highlights to ploys of Satan and The first days to stir Christians up into a revolutionary spirit so that they would destroy their own testimony.

And then on the other hand, to stir their persecutors up to come with them or come to them with the false accusation that they are guilty of sedition when in fact they are only seeking to obey God. So there are two prongs to this the danger of the Christian getting swept up unlawfully and then being falsely accused on the other hand. You know, he makes a statement, he will never cease to employ every means in his power to transform all into trouble and disorder. So he has great language to describe these problems. Yeah, it's a really interesting starting point for the chapter.

He goes to the New Testament to prove that Christians have always been accused of this, even when it wasn't true. And he makes the point that we should go out of our way to make sure that there's not evidence that it's true of us. But even if we're doing everything correctly to not be surprised if you're accused of this and so he starts with Jesus, he was accused of this and then he goes to Paul and Silas and Athens and saying they were accused of this. So he counsels the people of God not to be taken by surprise by these accusations because even if everything is in order and we're not guilty of it, we're likely to be accused of it. Yeah, I think there's a seed thought early on to � ຏຏຍຍຍຍງຏຏງຏຍຍງ຀ຕ຀େ຀ຍຈຍຈຈ ຏຏຍຈຈຈ຀ຈຈຈ ຏງຈຈງຈຈຈຈຍງຈຍຈ ຈຊ຅ຈພ ງຆ຀ຍຆ ຏຏຐ ຍຍຈກຈຈຍ ຍກຈ� �, he's especially guarding against an unprincipled resistance without ruling out what could be a biblical resistance, right, that's going to be flushed out in the trajectory of where he's going.

And it's helpful, I think, to have clear distinctions in our heads as Christians. So if you take this by way of analogy, you can have an event, a criminal comes to your house, they're going to kill a family member and you end up killing them in self-defense. That's lawful biblically, right? We can flesh that out. But if they got away, second category, and you hunt them down and find them three days later and kill them in that context, well then you're guilty of murder, right?

Whereas a third category, if the magistrate were to hunt them down three days later and apprehend them and through proper trial find them guilty, the magistrate could execute them and it would be lawful. Right. So I think it's important for Christians to have clarity in terms of distinctions of how the Bible applies to different circumstances. And I'll stop there. I mean, there's more I can say on that point.

Well, I'm glad you brought that up because he's, you know, all through this, he is not talking about self-defense. And I think we need to be very clear about that. He's talking about, you know, and even there, Scott, I mean, later in the chapter, he's saying things like, I think it's on page 41, he says that by rebellion, they rise up against the children of god without having any commission as a magistrate and then he's gonna go on to develop this this doctrine of interposition and The role of a lesser magistrate, I don't want to jump ahead But we need to keep that in our minds in terms of where he's going. Well, yeah, well, let's let's talk about that about that about that matter so I don't want to be the one doing most of the talking here but you have this seed thought even in Calvin, right, the idea that this doctrine of interposition, every magistrate has obligations to those that are under their authority. And if a higher magistrate is acting in a tyrannical way, the lesser magistrates have an obligation to protect the people against that exercise of despotism.

And that ends up being developed. So he's writing 13 years before St. Bartholomew's day massacre. After that, you have this flood of literature, the Monocleus the Hopman, Beza, Brutus, and so on, writing what, two, three, five years after that, and they really pick this up and begin to develop it. And there's a body of literature in Britain as well, of reformed writers, who are laying out that doctrine.

So there you have what looks like sedition and rebellion, but in that case it's a principled one. And I think that could maybe be fleshed out further, maybe in a further podcast. I don't mean to hijack things. No, that's fine. Let's deal with this matter of he details the difference between a Christ kingdom and the kingdom of the world, And he's telling us that Christ's kingdom is of a different nature because it is spiritual and the rule and governance is spiritual, it's not done by arms.

He says he requires no arms of his subjects except spiritual ones. So let's talk about that. So I actually had a quote that I wanted to read about that. It's on page � And here's what he says, and it's along the lines of a concept that Gavin has already introduced, which is how detrimental to the witness of the church insurrection is, and how harmful it is to the advancing of the gospel. So Peter takes up, Peter Vare, Pierre Vare takes up that thought on page 36.

He says, We do this that we might further the cause of the gospel by suffering for our enemies, not by making them suffer for us. And then he quotes John 18.36, my kingdom is not of this world, if my kingdom were of this world then my servants would fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews. So He's making this point that the thing that's pure amount is the advancement of the gospel not the assertion of our rights and sometimes we might be bound to assert our rights in order to advance the gospel but that's more rare than people like to represent it to be. Yeah, there are a few things going on there, you know. So you have the church, you've got this spiritual kingdom, but with regard to the calling of the church, all of that is true.

And so when we think of ourselves as Christians seeking to advance the kingdom of Christ and suffering, bearing the cross is a huge part of that with respect to our witness. And so if you were to contrast Christianity against Islam, you know, Jesus says, take up your cross and die. Muhammad said, pick up the sword and conquer. Very different. However, we also have to look at the Christian then as a citizen of a nation.

And the nation is also under law to God and Vera is very big on this. You know, when he he fleshes this out in the following chapters, the ruler is appointed by God and the law by which the ruler must rule, namely both tables of the Ten Commandments, brings that up, is the perfect law by which they rule. So now that has an impact on the way the Christian views himself in relation to rebellion and resistance to tyranny that he would not necessarily in the first place be doing this as a Christian to advance the church but he would be doing it as a Christian citizen, a patriot, someone who is being faithful to his nation and that nation likely being established upon contractual terms and Féiré brings this up later on as an argument as to when we can � a vitale distinction. So the church as the church seeking to advance the kingdom of God, is clearly more successful and more powerful in her witness when she suffers. And I think he talks about how the sheep vanquishes the wolf and now a beautiful picture.

Yeah I can't wait to get to that chapter that's that's that's one of the I was so thankful for that chapter. He seems very concerned about the gospel and the spread of the Gospel and he says that Jesus Christ did not conquer us and his kingdom by physical arms and so he doesn't maintain it that way. But it's interesting he he makes it really clear that you know come what may God's going to take care of the tyrants. He'll he'll he'll turn their weapons against them. So I mean he's really consoling a church I think that's being attacked that God God is not going to let them get away with it.

I hope reading quotes doesn't make too dull of podcasting. This one I can't resist, it was on page 41, but it's right on topic I think. He says, furthermore, if we have the gospel without a cross and without persecution, we will transform it into a carnal liberty, as we see in the fruits of many people, for whom the gospel has cost nothing, either of their possessions or their blood. Therefore they take no account of it and do not even know what it is." So he's saying, you know, at the root of many insurrections is just an inability and a complete unwillingness to suffer as Christians for a century and millennia have suffered, and that this � with no cost, which is no gospel at all. So I think what he's saying in this chapter highly focused is that, you know, men are going to be tempted to take up arms because they're being treated poorly.

They are being treated poorly. He makes that very clear. And his caution is don't fly into the arms of the devil and discredit and destroy. I think that's what he's trying to say in this chapter. Before we move on to the next chapter which has quite a bit of detail any final comments on this chapter I think his message is is very clear don't trust in your own physical strength don't don't don't take up arms and unless you have magistery unless you have have authority to do that He actually ends the chapter by making the argument that the people of God should be slow to take up arms and fast to pray, which is sort of the counterpoint.

Our commandment is to pray for those who are in authority. And there's a personality that runs hot and is slow to pray, but fast to take up arms. And he's saying that people of God should be like that. Right. So let's, you know, let's move on because he's going to really elaborate in the next chapter in chapter four.

You know, so, you know, after condemning those who take up arms by their own authority, then he begins to spin out various biblical arguments, making various distinctions. So let's talk about that. The first thing he brings up is, you know, vengeance is the Lord's. And he quotes, you know, Deuteronomy 32.41 and Romans 12, Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. And so he he, in saying that, he says that it's not lawful for anyone except magistrates to take up arms, for God did not give the sword to bear to any other besides him." So he's drawing some really strong distinctions there.

So let's just talk about this chapter. He has a lot to say. Let's just free flow. You know, pull out the things that you think are most helpful. And the duty of the lesser magistrate to protect the people, which the Greater Magistrate is duty bound to do as well.

He's a guardian of the law, he's a protector of the people. When he's not doing that, the Lesser Magistrate then arising to defend the people by way of a just resistance to tyranny. It is interesting to see how that develops. Historical context is key. You've got Calvin, which many people say is like doctrine of passive resistance, although that's arguable, particularly in his later writings.

But you've got other influences in and around Geneva as well. You know, John Knox is there. John Knox has a stronger view of resistance to tyranny than Calvin has. He writes the first blast of the trumpet against the monstrous regiment of women. It's key to that.

Then he writes 1558 around the same time his appellation to the nobles in Scotland and it's clearer there. His friend in Geneva is Christopher Goodman and you could argue he's even stronger than Knox. So there's a whole milieu of thought there. Beza comes out of that as well. And so they're crystallizing this just way to resist tyrants.

I suppose I would have a question that is this indeed the only just way to resist tyrants, because the idea of self-defense comes in for the private citizen or groups of private citizens as well. I don't know if pastor McCurley wants to take that up further. Is writing in 1559, as I said 13 years before the massacre in 72. And there's a lot of development within reformed political theory subsequent to that. This idea of the doctrine of interposition continues to be developed by a number of people, the Marian exiles like Gavin Wisset, Poine and others.

But there's what comes to the fore, and you see it, the seeds of it in Vire, is the idea that over against the use of venom, approach to magicistry, that it's by divine right is that it's covenantal and so the people have power which they convey to a magistrate on terms to carry out his responsibilities under God and on behalf of the people. And they have the power to withdraw that as well. So Knox picks this up and Goodman picks it up and Buchanan and Scotland picks it up. Rutherford spends a truckload of time on this in his book, Lex Rex. And so that is another element, but it's taking, I mean, we could talk at length about that.

It's a little further afield than what Vire is kind of settling on in these early days. Maybe Scott can give us some guidance there. Well, yeah, these are the early days for him for sure. And I mean, in terms of our context, we're probably in the early days too and I think of it that way. You know, one of the, you know, Virae is dealing with lots of practical matters about what you can do.

You know, I was struck by what he talked about in terms of killing criminals. You know, he talks about, you know, going, can you go and kill the bad guys because they're � and I think we've seen examples of that. In World War II, you had people who wanted to kill Hitler and things like that. He's addressing that, and he's bringing a big caution against that, you know, personal action against, you know, a horrible tyrant that's doing absolutely horrible things. And he just says, look, if everybody was permitted to kill those who deserved it, this would be a slaughterhouse on the earth, don't open that Pandora's box.

So I think, you know, he's constantly taking us back to the matter of authority, who has authority? And you know, and of course, he's going to he's going to localize that authority to those who've been given sole authority, individuals can protect themselves. You know, one of the questions I've had in dealing with this is, you know, you do have three governments, you have the church, you have the civil government, and you have the family. To what degree does that qualify as a lower magistrate? You do have a government in a home, and I've been very concerned about the overreaches into that jurisdiction in our own times To go back to where Gavin started this strained discussion in terms of are there any other lawful ways to resist.

I think in terms of chapter four and five, Verri is talking about insurrection and at least in my mind I've translated that into our armed attempt at overthrow, so I don't think anything in these two chapters would be rightly interpreted as an argument that the author is making against self-defense. I think that's kind of a category outside of these two chapters. Another element here is, VRA is, excuse me, especially focused on the willingness to yield our own personal comforts and rights. But there's another element and that is the unlawfulness to yield the rights and claims of Christ. No individual Christian has the power or authority to yield what belongs to Christ.

We can give up our own property and life in their circumstances where that may be appropriate, but it is treason against the king of kings if we take the things of Christ and yield those to the exercise of despotism and I think you know the next century 17th century this ends up coming to the fore. And it's super relevant and applicable in our own circumstances at present. So hopefully the audience is keeping those sorts of distinctions in their head. He makes a very interesting distinction about different types of despotism. One where he says the people are wholly subject, meaning the authority structure is sort of, it's not even a pyramid.

There are no lesser magistrates. The power is consolidated in one despot, and so according to the doctrine of interposition there you have much less recourse because there aren't civil magistrates to defend you. But then he talks about this other kind of government which is very different. He says where the people have other liberties, and then he uses this phrase. They have lawful means to resist, � ੿੸੍੿੍ੇੀ ੁੀੀ ੁੋੋੋ੎੅ੁ੍ੀ ੀੁ੍ੋੋੋ ੂੱੀੀੁੀ ੀੀੋੋ ੀੱੋੀ ੁੋੋੋ ੀ ੀੋੋੋ ੈੋੇੋ ੇੀੀ ੋ੍੒ੈੈੈੈੁ ੍ੀ ੋੋੋੋ � the person at the top of the authority structure has actually sworn to uphold the rights of the people and he's violating his oath and Vare views that as a very different circumstance and that it's completely lawful and right and good for people who aren't wholly subjects with without recourse but to to assert rights that the person at the top of the authority structure has sworn to uphold for them and is then violating.

Yeah is that in the section where he talks about you know almost like you've been concocted and you have no stated contractual rights but then he said you know as long as the Turks keep the terms they promised the Pete these people are bound to keep what they promised ph 48 but if the Turks were yes so that's getting into what's developed then in the decades following this whole idea of contractual government and so then that �'s violating the contractual or covenantal terms. So if you were to advance into Scotland in the 17th century, the whole issue of the covenanters and, you know, why are Christians taking up arms? Well, they're Christian citizens in a covenant nation with a stated constitution. The King has signed that covenant on two occasions and then proven himself to be a Covenant-breaker. So the citizens believe that they are the patriots who are faithful to the covenant in removing the covenant breaker, not to overthrow the government, but in order that the Constitution might actually be upheld as it's stated before God.

And you've got that in seed here in page 48 in what Vire is is communicating. So now we're getting to something that's directly and immediately applicable to our current circumstances. I mean we are out of the realm of the theoretical now, because we are citizens who do have constitutional rights. And I mean I think Gavin drives home a good point. It's not just our right to do it, there � ୨་ຒຄ຀ຈຘດຖຂຜງຍຈຎພ຀ຈຈ຋ຖຍງດຈຈຈຈຈຈຈຈຈດ຋ຈຘດຈຉດຈຈຈຈຆຈຈຈຘ຋ງຎຕ຀ຈຈຆຈຈຈຈຈກຈກຈຈຈຈຈຈຈຆ � and he makes it very clear that we have an obligation to defend for a just cause so let's open that up.

What does he think is a just cause? I'm not sure I'm prepared to answer that question but I think he's saying it starts with asserting the rights that you do have as a citizen so long before we get to talking about insurrection if you have they should assert those rights. If a leader has sworn to defend those rights and then he won't do it, the citizens have every right to act and even a duty to do so. He actually says, subjects owe no further allegiance to such rulers. The reason being that they are oath breakers, so they can with their magistrates take up arms against such tyrants and oath breakers.

So to answer your question of the justness of the action it has to do with the violation of the terms of this contract you know he's he's an oath-breaker. Obviously we ought to be slow to move towards taking up arms etc. But there are lesser applications of this that are very much applicable today, you know, in using your rights as a citizen as you mentioned, to appeal violations of the Constitution. Many people say, oh, this is unconstitutional. Unconstitutional, OK, well, what are you going to do about it?

What are the lesser magistrates going to do about it? There's an argument here of a step by step process that in theory could end up with resistance, you know, physical resistance, But there are a lot of lower labels that can be applied. The same principle can be applied. Well, I think we all just experienced that. You know, we had governments telling us to close our churches and we said, well, first of all, you have no right to tell the church what to do because we have our own government.

And secondly, secondarily, peripherally, we have a First Amendment. And so, it's right to claim First Amendment rights I don't think that's a central matter that we claim we claim the Lordship of Jesus Christ over his Church. So I think we did that in a very, very small way. I think Viret would look at this as what we're dealing with is very small potatoes so far anyway. But it's funny.

He always brings the reader back to caution. He says, carefully examine these things, have fear of God. Like what you said earlier, Gavin, be careful. � up arms unless absolute necessity constrains you to do such a thing. If there's no way to continue to have peace, then go slow with it.

And he says, we must leave war to the wild animals you know I think he's he's seen you know human passions unleashed in a way that you know he's really he's really correcting and he he calls christians to you know to self-discipline example from scripture would be in the old testament where soul king makes a law that if anyone eats anything they're going to be executed � and that becomes known and the people resist saw they're actually praised for resisting saw and defending Jonathan against what would have been an unjust execution. Amen. That's a wonderful example. And he gives different examples here in this section. His concern is trusting in the arms of the flesh and he quotes Jeremiah 17, "'cursed be the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord, and he shall be like the heath in the desert, and he won't see good come." So, you know, Vire's message is a constraining message, but it's also clarifying to help us understand, you know, there are duties that we have to resist, and there are times when we absolutely must resist.

Okay, so let's just go around real quickly. Any just final comments? Jason, we'll make you last. We'll put you, Rob. Rob, why don't you start, and then Gavin and Jason, and then we'll just try to capsize what we've what we've seen here in this chapter.

Yeah, I mean one thing I think a takeaway is the Christians allegiance, unqualified allegiance is to the Lord Jesus Christ as a citizen of heaven and of the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ. So magistrates can actually become enemies of Christ. Song 2, we have it all through the Psalms actually. And the perspective of the christian needs to be conformed to that so it's not as if the array is saying well you have enemies of the lord jesus christ and now you're called to support and endorse the enemies of Christ side with them. Right?

That needs to be clear in our heads. We have devotion, love, allegiance, submission to Jesus only in an unqualified way. All other allegiance is conditional and qualified and He's opening up a crack in a door about how that Allegiance is to be expressed. What are the vehicles or means through which that is expressed? But you know Christ needs to be at the dead center of the Christians heart and thinking on these things and it controls you know how we approach both what we're willing to endure and what we're duty bound to resist through various lawful means to the glory of God.

Amen. Amen. Gavin. Yeah. � and you've published this book and the discussions that we've had over the last year, is that we see a storm on the horizon and Christians need to get these things clear in their mind.

You know, obviously in the United States you've got an ingrained sense, I think in the minds of people, of resistance to tyranny. You know, You've got the right to bear arms and so on. And then you see that expressed and as an incomer, on the one hand, I appreciate it. And on the other hand, it gives me pause. So guys go out in the streets and there they are with their assault rifles and it's a muscle flex, you know?

As I say there are good things and bad things to that. I think what Vire says here is that we ought to be doves rather than hawks when it comes to this issue of resistance. We know the time will come or may come where we have to do this, but the spirit of rebellion and revolution is not the spirit of the Christian. And so then that enables us to follow what Rob was saying, to endure looking to Christ. But at the same time, to circle back to something really at the very start of chapter three, the state comes with their accusations against us that we are being seditious for our faithfulness to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Think of our brothers in Canada presently and Christians naively cry, oh this isn't persecution, this is a standard law that everybody has to observe, these Christians are being foolish. Not so. The reason it's persecution is the general law must be disobeyed by the believer and faithfulness to Christ For the disobedience to that Law neither being persecuted That's the way it works You know, now the accusation that you're being seditious, you're not submitting to Caesar. And persecution works, has worked that way from the New Testament until now. So we need to line these things up in our minds because the last year has shown us the Christians have just been swept off their feet and haven't had a clue really how to process this whole matter.

I was watching an interview of that pastor who spent a month in jail and now he's back and they've double fenced off his church. It was an interview outside the fence. And he said something wonderful. He said, the church isn't a building. You can't keep me out of the church.

Fences can't keep me out of the church. Scott and I were talking about this before the podcast, Scott said their sweetest worship service in the history of their church probably happened yesterday somewhere outside the fence. And that probably is true. So it brings to the fore, It has a relationship to the things that we're talking about in this chapter. There are some glories associated with coming into a time of pressure, and there are some opportunities for advancement of the Gospel that you don't have when you're not under pressure.

We shouldn't feel like it's an immovable, dark cloud over us. It affords us some opportunities that we never have otherwise and we shouldn't be afraid. �f And we should be afraid. Amen. Yeah, the Lord is controlling all of these things.

He's the King of Kings and He's the Lord of Lords, and He's choreographing all the things that happen in the world. And so we can really be thankful for that. What we'll find as we press on in Vire's book here is that things actually get worse for him. There's a confiscation of property and then it gets worse after that and so there's kind of an escalation in motion even in his day and we'll see how he brings counsel to the church as we as we move on. But brothers thank you so much for joining us.

I think we've seen Vire's tender spirit and his desire for Christians to trust the Lord and not on the arm of the flesh and to recognize that there are boundaries to their behaviors and they really are defined by God and the various jurisdictions that he's established. So I think that's what we get from these two chapters. So I hope you read it. Hope you read it carefully. There are many, many golden statements that are in this book.

And I pray that the Lord gives us all wisdom to understand how to navigate the times that we are in and that we would be wise and that we would understand the will of the Lord in the times that we're in. You know, the church, it's time for a church to be bold and do the things that the church was commanded to do, regardless of what anyone says. Про이스 the Lord that his church is unconquerable and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. So, with that, brothers thank you so much for joining us, lots of stuff to talk about, not enough time, but I praise the Lord, at least we're able to touch on these matters. So thank you for joining us on the Church &哈 정.

�n Family Life podcast. See you next time. Hope you can get the book and the study guide that we have that will help you kind of dissect some of the details that are in this book. Hope you can join us next time.