Bradley Pierce and Phil George have been part of the abortion resistance movement in their state of Texas. They have been educating and litigating for the sake of breaking the cycle of murder. On this broadcast, they will give us a view of the state of the battle as well as guide us on how to engage this battle in our own states.

Hey, welcome to the Church and Family Life podcast. Let me tell you a couple of things real quick before we get going. Hope you can come to our Theology of the Family Conference at Ridgecrest, North Carolina, May 20 through 23. Just Before that, a singles conference called Holiness to the Lord, May 19 and 20. Also go to our website.

We have lots of resources, over 5,000. Churchandfamilylife.com. Also, I just published a book called The Family at Church, How Parents Are Tour Guides for Joy. I think this book could really help sweeten your local church experience. Okay, let's get on now with the podcast.

Okay, welcome to the Church and Family Life podcast. I'm Scott Brown, and hey Jason, Jason Dome is here. Hello, good to see you again. Yeah, glad we can do this again. Church and family life exists to proclaim the sufficiency of Scripture for the spread of the gospel across the generations.

And this week we are going to talk about abortion with Bradley Pierce and Phil George. Hey Bradley, hello Bradley, good to see you. Bradley Pierce is an attorney and executive director of Abolish Abortion Texas, praise the Lord for that. And Phil George, hello Phil. Hey brothers, Wonderful to see you.

Phil is a pastor at Grace Life Dallas and is a CPA. Phil has 10 children, and it looks like Bradley may be well on the way. Bradley, poor man, only has nine children. The Lord reigns. So brothers, it's so good to have you with us.

We're so grateful for your work in Texas and beyond. And our main objective here is to help families and churches understand how to respond to the current climate of abortion, how to think about it, what to do about it. Well, you two recently put on a conference on abortion. I was really glad you did that. Tell us why you did it.

And you did this when almost no one was doing any conferences this year. So tell us about why you did that. Well, brother, really the impetus of the conference, it goes, I'll make it quick, but I'd like to give a little history that just within our church over the last few years, we've come to realize that though we opposed abortion, Theologically, the outworking of that had really fallen short of a biblical paradigm of how you go about addressing it, whether it be from the pulpit, at the mill, before the legislature. Me pastorally, our church had some repenting to do and really rethinking what the word of God says and how it speaks into this issue. And so what happened was last year, we had sent a couple of brothers to the End Abortion Now Conference in Arizona, and that was really impactful, helpful for them in that ministry within our local church.

But then as it came to look to 2020, I was hoping to look around and find something more local that we might be able to have our members participate in to be able to really further be edified and built up and understand how to engage this issue. And as I looked at the landscape of 2020, and this was pre-COVID, there was literally not any such conference within the North Texas area. I mean, we're in Dallas, there's like 1,200 churches, seven million people, but not one conference dealing with really the most pressing social issue of the day, the murder of a million of our preborn brothers and sisters every year in America. And so that was really the impetus for us just looking around and going, okay, if no one's doing this, let's at least try to put on a little something for our church to help and equip them. And the Lord just really opened the doors way beyond that.

I mean, we were hoping to bring in a couple of speakers and all of a sudden we ended up with, you know, a multi-day conference with 200 plus registrants that went out to over 12,000 people on Facebook live when we were streaming it. And so the Lord blessed it way more abundantly than we could have ever planned or hoped. Oh, that's great. Bradley, what was in your mind on this conference? Yeah, well, I was privileged to get to be one of the speakers at the conference, invited by Pastor Phil, and grateful to be able to come there and just speak about something that we're all very passionate about.

So grateful to them for hosting me. No, that's so great. So how does the sufficiency of Scripture tie in to this question of abortion? Well, brother, it was really, that was the theme of our conference, that what we had done is we looked around at, you know, the pro-life movement within this nation, And what we came to realize is that there's 46 million, or no, 60 million plus babies' bodies that you can look out as a testimony to the ineffectiveness of what's been going on. And we realized it's not ineffective just from a pragmatic perspective.

It's ineffective because it has no foundation within the Word of God. What we've done, even within the church, is we've taken a secular pro-life position and baptized it with a few scripture verses and assumed that that is a biblical Christian position. And so the name of our conference was Pro-Life is Not Enough, and all the audio from there, including Bradley's message and my message is available for free at that website, prolifeisnotenough.com. And basically what we tried to do is give a full-orbed look at, okay, we believe that abortion should be abolished. And so how does that impact how we go about ministry in the local church?

How do we approach that? So we started with the message on the gospel being the foundation, recognizing that, you know, if hearts and minds are not changed, if God doesn't grant repentance and regeneration, that this is, it's a non-starter for us. And then we moved on to look at the issue of the local church and you know and it was just very providential looking around that I think our position would be that Roe and the pro-life abortion legislation is an unjust thing and that the Christians, that legislature should stand in opposition to that. But all the while, we have churches during, especially a couple of months ago when when we were having our conference, that there was many churches not meeting and they were they were not fighting against the unjust, you know, mandates and shutdowns and things of the federal government. So it was ironic that this is what we're calling the lesser magistrate to do, to defy Roe, because it's an unjust and unbiblical decision.

But yet, as pastors, as Christians, we weren't willing to stand up again, the unjust civil magistrate that said, hey, you can't meet churches. And then it was very encouraging to see John MacArthur and the other pastors there at Grace Community Church stand up on that. But so we went through that and Bradley's to join that, how you engage the legislature. And we had John Barrows come and speak on, okay, how does this outflow into ministry at the abortion mill? And then I spoke on, you know, if we really value life, that doesn't mean just pre-born life, and we value children, well, that means that that flows over into discipleship in the home.

And so, like I said, we tried to make it a full-orbed discussion of this issue. So Phil and Bradley, I think if you, well first of all let me just say I think the bar for churches is very low. In other words, if you look across the continuum of churches, I think if you have a pro-life Sunday, you're way over on the really active side. And man, is that a low bar. I think if you looked at the demographics of most churches, probably 10% really care about pro-life, meaning they're actively doing things, but they're not actively doing things with the church.

They're sort of acting independently because it's something that they're passionate about, and that the other 90 percent, or whatever the percentage is, is not thinking about the abortion of babies from one month's end to the other. So if you were speaking to churches and pastors out there, what is a way that a church can engage in a meaningful way to really kind of change the atmosphere of the church, the messaging in their church, the participation in the church? Brother, what I would say is Paul Washer, I'm sure you guys have heard, he kind of thinks through the Christian life in a concentric circle sort of worldview, starting with self, moving out into marriage and family and church and society. And I think that that's how we have to approach this issue as well, Looking at our own life as Christians, as pastors, and repenting where repentance is needed, then discipling our children, teaching them the truth that abortion is the murder of a preborn image bearer of God. And I think In our homes, most of them probably get that.

They've seen the sonograms hanging on the refrigerator. They understand this better than even a lot of adults in society. But we need to be discipling them into that, teaching them that scripture is sufficient. Scripture does speak into this issue despite what even prominent reformed evangelicals like Tim Keller would say that the Bible doesn't really speak clearly into how abortion should be ended. Yes, he acknowledges that it does call abortion something to sin, but he claims that the Bible doesn't speak to the means of that.

I think if we applied that to any other sin, such as murder, none of us could ever even dream to say, well, the Bible condemns murder, but it doesn't give us any clue about how to actually stop murder from happening. That's just ridiculous on his face. The scripture speaks to this, and we have to be teaching our children that scripture is sufficient, not just to guide church and family life, because I know many of us, myself included, at some point in the past, we realized, well, we thought that, we understood that we were called to disciple our children and what we thought that meant was dropping them off at Sunday school or youth group for an hour a week. In this case, we all affirm, okay, we should be pro-life and we think what that means is supporting a Republican president that's going to put in pro-life justices that may one day overturn Roe. I mean, that, as my brother mentioned, maybe one message a year on Pro-Life Sunday, that's the extent of what it means to be pro-abortion.

But we recognize as we look back at history, whether it's in Nazi Germany, that would have been insufficient for churches there when millions of Jews were being murdered. You look back in slavery in America, that would be insufficient when millions of our brothers and sisters were being subjugated to an unjust system of oppression and slavery there, that God's Word speaks to these things. And the churches need to speak up, Christians need to speak up, lesser magistrates need to speak up and stand in interposition. And those are the things within our homes and within our churches. So Bradley, it sounds like one of the thrust of your work is governmental advocacy.

Is that engaging churches in that or something different? Well, I mean, the mission of our organization is to mobilize Christians to engage their magistrate, to influence civil government. We believe that that's part of the great commission is teaching people to obey whatsoever Christ has commanded. And so yes, absolutely, our target or our focus is upon the church. It's upon churches.

It's upon Christians. We believe that God says, if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves, pray, turn from their wicked ways, seek my face, then will I hear from heaven, will heal and heal their land. And so we believe that that's, you know, judgment begins in the house of God, but that's also where repentance begins as well. And so we believe that that's That's the focus of how to go about, you know, approaching our civil magistrates is that for it needs to come through the churches. So absolutely we're grateful for pastors like Pastor Phil and others who are standing up and there needs to be a whole lot more.

Bradley, give us a scriptural case. What cascades out of your mind as far as the biblical defense of the pro-life position? Yeah, so, you know, I would say fundamentally we see all authority belongs to God, right? And then he delegates that authority. And we see in Genesis chapter nine, he delegates that authority and institutes civil government.

And when he does the very, the first and foremost role of civil government that he gives is whoever sheds man's blood by man's blood be shed. So, you know, murder and prosecuting those who commit murder is at the very forefront of why civil government exists. And it's not just in the Old Testament. We see in Romans 13, you know, the apostle Paul under the inspiration of the spirit tells us, be subject to the governing authorities, for they do not bear the sword in vain, that they are a terror to evildoers. And the sword is an instrument of death, is an instrument of execution.

And of course, Genesis chapter nine tells us that, you know, murder is a capital offense. We see even in Romans 13, that that's why God has given the sword to the civil government, to be a terror to evildoers, to protect the innocent. And so, you know, we believe this is at the heart of why we even have civil government. And then we even see in Genesis 9, right after God says that, he says, for in the image of God made he man. And so this is about saving babies.

That's important. But it's even about vindicating the image of God, which is being slain in our land. And so it's not just an issue of murder, which is a wicked enough reason, but it's an issue of really blasphemy, of slaying the image of God in the place, as we say, in the place of the incarnation that is Christ. He entered the world through the womb of a woman. And that's where we're going in, in our society.

And that's where we're slaying the image of God is in that place. So, you know, thou shall not kill, you know, is the beginning of it. You just identified that. I think that's probably the most defining biblical proposition that forms the Christian position on abortion. Then you have lots of other passages you mentioned being made in the image of God.

Are there other passages of scripture you think parents need to teach their children to help them understand how to dissect this problem? I mean, I think we see in Leviticus, for example, there's a passage in Leviticus 20, I believe, talking about child sacrifice, where it says that, you know, that God will set his face against the man who sacrificed his own children to Molech. And then God also says that if the people of the land ignore that person or close their eyes to that person, that God will also set his eyes against that community, which ignores us. And so I believe that we have a fundamental duty as Christians to be engaging our civil leaders to be dealing with this crime as being committed in our midst. And I believe right there is a specific command of God to do that.

We also see in Exodus the passage about men striving together. And if a woman who is pregnant is harmed, then that's where we hear the eye for eye, tooth for tooth, et cetera. And that passage is talking about a baby before the baby is born. And then it says, what is the punishment? It says that it's the same punishment for harm to the mother is also the same punishment for any harm that befalls the child in the womb.

And commentators throughout history have consistently agreed with that until very recently where some have said otherwise, but that's been an historical position that that passage is saying that the child in the womb is of equal value and he's being equally protected as that mother outside the womb. You know, we see in the New Testament as well the same term for a baby in the womb, brephos, Greek term brephos, being also used for a baby outside of the womb. John, when he was in his mother's womb, was called brephos. Jesus, when he was born, was called brephos. So, God uses the same terminology to describe people in the womb, people out of the womb, and he requires, I believe, the same protection and the same justice for people inside and outside of the womb.

Scott, if I could add one scripture to the mix, It'd be Proverbs 31-8, which says, open your mouth for the speechless in the cause of those who are appointed to die. And it's really telling a Christian what our place is in the world. Christians advocate on the most vulnerable and for the people who can't advocate for themselves. And there's no one who fits that definition more than a baby in the womb. Yeah, can I have one more scripture to that?

And that is Proverbs 24. It says, you know, hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter, who are stumbling towards death. And then it says, if you say, behold, we did not know it, does not he who weighs the hearts know it? And he will then he will judge you. So again, it's an example that not only does God say, don't do this, He says, and if you ignore it, or if you pretend it's not happening, God will hold you accountable.

Can you all comment on the idea that pops up in the Old Testament several times of innocent blood, the shedding of innocent blood? Well, let me go back one thing just to the scriptures that we talked about. I think for most Christians, the problem is not knowing what the Bible says, the problem is thinking through that and then applying it. I mean everyone knows the Sixth Commandment, but somehow there's a disconnect saying, well it's okay if we kill our preborn neighbors as long as they're not more than 20 weeks old. It's okay to kill our preborn neighbors, but if they don't have a heartbeat beat, or whatever the different characteristic might be that we're not applying the scripture that we know consistently and biblically.

And we have to recognize that the law is a tutor, the law is teaching people, and the legislation that we are putting out there, the problem with it is when we pass, say, a heartbeat bill, What we're doing by that sort of legislation is we're teaching society, we're teaching non-believers and believers alike that it is okay to murder as long as there's no heartbeat. And so I would focus probably even more so upon correctly applying the scripture that you already know, rather than looking for a whole bunch of other scripture that you need to just learn and have head knowledge, I would ask, hey, have you seen a life transformation from what you do know about this issue? And That was the case for me and I think a lot of other believers as well as they could head not a lot of these things, but in the end, they weren't really applying the word of God consistently. You know, let me just take off on that for a moment. I think that brings us to the point that there are pro-lifers and there are pro-lifers, you know, for example I think we were all delighted when he heard when we heard our president Donald Trump a few months ago Say that a baby is made in the quote Holy image of God.

I couldn't believe that an American president said that. And, you know, we have a president who has, has the name of being pro life. Could you guys comment about what kind there are pro lifers and there are pro lifers? Well, I'll, I'll go first brother. I know you would have some things to add to this, but I mean, one of the things that is like you said, Scott, I am encouraged to hear a president use those kinds of language.

I'm encouraged, you know, even in the last few weeks where he's named the name of Christ, those things are encouraging to me. But in the case of the pro-life issue, while this is a president that still allowed a half a billion dollars of funding to go to Planned Parenthood where this is a president that, okay, I acknowledge that all children are made in the image of God, but it's okay to kill them in the case of rape and incest. Again, there's a disconnect there, and it's a disconnect that us as Christians need to call out, not just to our president, but to our legislatures. And so, on the one hand, yes, we can rejoice, but that seems to be the problem is that most people that wear the hat pro-life, they will rejoice in that, but they won't recognize that inconsistency and see how basically that mindset is what has led to where we're at now, where almost 50 years post-Roe and there's been absolutely no change. The quote pro-life victories that have come through legislation are almost meaningless and almost never actually get put into effect and as we saw even in the vice presidential debate when Vice President Pence was directly asked if Roe was overturned, if he would support the making abortion illegal in his home state and he dodged the question.

And I mean this is a man that truly does seem to be a believer and yet wouldn't directly answer that kind of question. So to me, that's just cowardice in not taking a perfect opportunity to truly stand up for the pre-born and not just give a lip service. Yeah, I agree with that. I deal a lot with legislature and kind of in the political realm. And I can tell you there that the term pro-life, I do not want to be associated with.

Because when it comes to the pro-life leaders and the pro-life lobby, the kind of things that they push are not the things that I have as a pro-life have wanted, you know, my entire life, you know, that's one reason I call myself an abolitionist is because I'm seeking equal protection for all people from the moment of fertilization, from the moment of conception. Whereas a lot of the bills that are being put forward by, or all the bills I should say, almost all the bills being put forward by pro-life legislators and the pro-life lobby, they actually make the problem a lot worse. You know, I believe that Roe vs Wade is null and void. It's unconstitutional, which means it's not the supreme law of the land, which means we as states don't have to follow it, which means that every time we write a bill that tries to comply with Roe vs Wade, we're just entrenching it further and legitimizing it further. And it's an evil decision.

We need to stop bowing down to it and we need to stand up to it. So unfortunately, our pro-life bills that we keep passing over and over and over by the hundreds across this country just further entrenched Roe versus Wade whenever we need to stop acting like it's the law of the land. And then the other thing that they do is that they don't provide equal protection. Back in 1973 when Roe versus Wade was decided, you know, there wasn't a single bill in the country that, or a single law in the country that actually said that provided equal protection. And by that I mean, meaning that the same protection for born people also applied to people before they were born.

And that's one of the reasons we got, or that may be one of the main reasons we got Roe versus Wade in the first place, is because the Supreme Court actually said in oral arguments and in the actual Roe versus Wade opinion, they said, hey, Texas, because that's who Wade, you know, that's who, that's the Wade side of that case, is that, hey, Texas, you have laws that are outlawing, you know, that say that abortion is a crime, and you're here arguing, saying that the person, or that a fetus is a person under the 14th Amendment, but your own laws don't treat them like a person. You know, it's, the penalties aren't the same, the mother is immune, and there's exceptions to it. And so, since you're not treating them like a person then we're not gonna treat him like a person and so I'm an abolitionist because You know because I believe that all the things that a lot of times we as pro-life are say, you know, that, you know, it's a, it's a, from the moment of conception, made in the holy image of God, all these things, but none of the bills that are, that pro-life leaders are actually introducing and supporting actually do any of that, actually treat that child like a light.

I actually treat their death like it's homicide, like it's murder. And so I'm an abolitionist because I believe in equal protection and following the constitution and stop pretending the Roe versus Wade is law of the land because it's not. So Bradley, I'm glad you addressed that. I think lots of Americans have a misconception about the Supreme Court and the abolishing of abortion, or not abolishing, but overturning Roe versus Wade. Bradley, tell us what's the reality there?

If the Supreme Court overturns Roe versus Wade, what's the real impact? Well, I mean, they could overturn it in a couple of different ways. If they just merely overturned it and just said, hey, that was unconstitutional, and so kind of erased it and pretended it never happened, then it would just go back to the states for the states to decide what they do with it. And there are a number of states where it would definitely automatically become illegal. There are a number of states where it would not be illegal.

And there's some states in the middle where it would be kind of confusing because there are some statutes that say it is illegal still in the books, but then there's all these kind of pro-life regulations that kind of muddy the waters. So as far as exactly what would happen if they overturned, it's not exactly clear. But another way they could overturn it would be saying that if they were to say that a fetus is a person under the 14th amendment, then not only would they have to, you know, out, not only would it return to the states, actually it would say states you have to outlaw abortion if they went that far. In fact, that's what the court said in Roe vs. Wade.

The court actually said, they said, you know, hey, Texas, if you're saying that the fetus is a person, then your own laws don't go far enough. So if they were to rule that way, then then it would make abortion illegal across the country. Now, I don't think anybody expects them to go that far if they ever even do overturned rovers way, but it's certainly possibility. But you know, we've had 47 years of Republican majority on the court. We have six Republican appointed justices now, which is the same number that we had in 1973 when Roe was decided.

If we can just get two more, we'll have the same number that we had in 1992 when Planned Parenthood versus Casey was decided, when we had eight Republican appointees and one pro-life Democrat on the court. I think that the odds of Roe versus Wade being overturned by this court, I know everybody who wants your vote keeps acting like, hey, we're just one vote away. But we've been doing that for 47 years and there's nothing that looks like it's going to happen. The only justice on the court who's ever said he would overturn Rose Thomas, none of the others ever have. Well, thank you.

I appreciate that the dose of reality, I think that's absolutely right. Let me throw one thing in there just to piggyback on what Bradley said of the same as Bradley, I would affirm that I'm an abolitionist and there's I think no greater way to see that distinction is you look at states like Oklahoma and Texas that actually have had bills that would immediately outlaw abortion in all circumstances come up, you either for vote in the legislature or trying to make it up in committee and you look and see who are the ones most opposed to that legislation and it is the the pro-life lobbies and organizations they're the ones that stand in opposition to that so that the really distinct contrast between someone that would affirm abolition that seeks the immediate ending of abortion and someone that just would like to regulate it, which we would never consent to in any other sin, any other crime. But we've been taught and indoctrinated that this is something that we must do in relation to abortion, all the while that the more left-leaning states will stand up against the federal government when it comes to an issue like marijuana.

I mean, that should really convict us that, you know, you have people that would stand up against what they view as something unjust in relation to something like marijuana where we won't stand up and ask our lesser magistrates to stand up in something that is clearly abhorrent clearly against scripture and against the Constitution and won't stand up against Roe. Well, all that to say, there are pro-life folks and there are pro-life folks. We're glad for your kind, we really are. So we're gonna wind this up. Now I want you guys to team up.

This is kind of a surprise here. They're going to get surprised. I want you to consider there's a 10 year old, one of your 10 year old children in front of you. And I want you to tell them what it means to be pro-life. And you can, you know, how about Bradley, why don't you start and if you've got anything to add, Phil, go ahead and add it, but set that 10 year old in front of you and instruct them in the ways of the Lord.

Bradley. Well, I mean, I would go to the government. That's you know, and I knew that this was my children all the time. We talked about this a lot. No, no, no, no, no, Bradley.

You're not. You're talking about it. I want you to talk to I am your child. I am your 10 year old. Okay, you're my child.

You know, life is a beautiful thing that God has given to us. It's a gift from God. God has the power to give life. God has the power to take away life. And God creates life.

God, his word says he knits us together in our mother's womb. He is an act of creation. When we're inside of our mother's womb, he knits us together. And whenever you were inside of mama's womb, God was knitting you together and he formed a fashion to you into the person that you are, and you came out and we got to hold you and it's so wonderful. But in our society today, there are some people who hate God and who hate his law and they're lovers of self and you know what?

They don't want to have a baby they want to have all the pleasure but they don't want responsibility so they believe in killing children and they they murder their own babies they take They go and they hire people to murder and to rip their babies apart. It's a horrible thing in our society and God hates it. You know what? Our society, our civil leaders have just allowed it to go on. They even say that it's legal to do that.

And even in its Christians in this country allow it to go on and they just sit idly by and they don't act like there's thousands and thousands, you know, hundreds of thousands of babies being murdered every year. They just sit in their pews and go on about their lives and they're be comfortable and they say, peace, peace. But there is no peace in our country. Our country is at war, at war against the unborn, at war against the image of God. And that's why we're seeing God bringing a lot of judgment upon our country, and why we need to fight against that.

And we need to be God's ambassadors. And we need to sow the seeds of his word wherever we can, and to preach against them, against this, and to speak up for those who can't speak for themselves. And you know what? We don't know what God's going to do. He may use us to help abolish abortion or He may not.

The judgment may continue. But you know what is most important, honey? It's for us to be faithful to God and to sow the seed and then trust him with the results. So we love children. You know that we love your brothers and sisters.

We pray that God would give us more and we're going to do everything we can to love the image of God by fighting for pre-born babies. Amen. Phil. Amen. Well, brothers, I know you said we're a team, but it's like you gave me Michael Jordan in a pickup basketball game.

My brother just killed it. I honestly, there's nothing that I could add to that. That was really well done, brother. I mean, just pointing our children to the sufficiency of the word the glory of God and Then how do we work that out in life? Like I think that's that's what I really appreciate about your message brother that it was it was Christ centered God focused And then it had application.

It's okay I affirm all these things to you son or daughter and that's why we're living in such and such a way. So that was really well said, brother. Well brothers, thank you so much. Really appreciate your giving us the time to bring these things to us. So all you who are listening, check back with us on Monday.

We're going to launch another podcast. And until next time, what a blessing it is that Scripture is efficient and gives us all we need to know for life and godliness. Jason, Thanks for joining us. Let's go do it again. Pleasure.

Thanks for listening to the Church and Family Life podcast. We have thousands of resources on our website, announcements of conferences coming up. Hope you can join us. Go to churchandfamilylife.com. See you next Monday for our next broadcast of the Church and Family Life podcast.