In our discussion of Chapter 13 of When to Disobey, we encounter four heroes of the faith who are worth emulating. The Bible is full of heroes who would not obey government mandates – perhaps surprisingly, Scripture does not just tolerate these figures, it praises them. First, we encounter the Hebrew midwives in Exodus 1. Second, we see the Egyptian taskmasters who were also Israelites who obeyed God by not abusing their workers. Our third example is Rahab in Joshua 2 and 6.  Our last stop is I Samuel, examining Jonathan before his father, King Saul.

Welcome to the Church and Family Life podcast. Church and Family Life exists to proclaim the sufficiency of Scripture. And so Jason Dome, here we go again. Hi Scott. Hey, we've got James Coates with us.

Hi James. Hey guys, how you doing? Good. So James is a pastor at Grace Life Church in Alberta, Canada. Was all over the news a while back as the church got shut down and he was jailed.

But we're here to talk about chapter 13 of When to Disobey. The title is True obedience to magistrates, examples from Scripture. So, James, we've got some examples from Scripture, and we've got an example in you. How about that? We were glad to see how you navigated all that.

Virae gives us four examples. These are civil disobedience texts that I think they qualify and explain various elements of Romans 13. And We find ourselves learning about civil disobedience from our heroes of the faith. That's who these are. And how would we imitate their faith?

How would we learn from them? And there are four here, the Hebrew midwives, and then the Egyptian taskmasters, and then Rahab, and then 4th Jonathan. So, we're going to try to touch on each one of these briefly and just try to give some sense of what we learn from them. So, let's begin with the Hebrew midwives. Vire makes it clear that they rightly disobeyed.

There was harm being done to human life, to babies, and they did the right thing. They were deceptive in their practices. So Let's talk about the Hebrew midwives. What do we learn from them? Well, obviously, the order that had come down from Pharaoh was an unjust order and was putting life in jeopardy.

And so these women had to make a decision as to whether they were going to obey Pharaoh or obey God, and they opted to obey God because that was the right thing to do. Yes, so you have these unjust orders and they come in different classifications. Jason, what are your thoughts on that? Well, Verre alludes to Exodus chapter 1 verse 17, which explicitly says that they feared God. So, we actually get the motivations of the Hebrew midwives.

It was their fear of God. They feared God more than they feared the king of an empire. And Verre says that they wouldn't have been true servants of God if they had obeyed Pharaoh. So Verre, I think, casts it appropriately, which is just that they weren't even at liberty to obey the commandments of the king because there's a higher king. He says explicitly they feared God more than man.

I thought that was really succinct. Well, and the fear of God is inseparable from obedience. I mean, as you track the fear of God throughout Scripture, it is those who obey God that are identified as those who fear Him. And so the fear of God and obedience are inseparable realities. And so they understand that ultimately their responsibility is to obey God.

That is motivated by fear. And so when the Pharaoh contradicts what obedience to God looks like and calls for, they resist appropriately. Hey, these were mighty women, okay? They were going up against the most powerful ruler in the world. I mean, just think about these women, these tenderhearted women, and they are strong.

They are like Sarah, who do not fear the future. And we're going to get to meet them someday, these midwives. I think you're going to really enjoy meeting them. These were mighty women of God who stood strong against the most powerful ruler in the world at that time. I think that's astounding.

It's interesting, he was using them to do his business And then when they wouldn't, he went direct. And this is what tyrants do. They use the business people first. And that's what they're doing now. They're using the corporations of the world to execute the plan.

Thankfully, the business community quit doing it. The midwives quit doing it. I don't see the big companies in the world stopping so that the government can take over. They're not God-fearers. They're not God-fearers, right.

There's a section on 158 which talks about how unthinkable it is that a person of faith in the God of the Bible would align with a civil magistrate against the people of God. I think it's worth reading. For A says, thus seeing that as so, we must not think that it is loyalty and fidelity to remain united with the wicked, with those to whom we are joined either by consanguinity or other alliances, when they join together against God. But we must consider a revolution against God and treason against His church and His people, if we give aid and favor to those united against the children of God. Thus, we ought not to be considered disloyal or traitors and betrayers when we separate ourselves from the wicked and their wicked cause in order to join ourselves to the righteous and God's cause.

So there's this other angle where you have some sort of a connection or unity with the civil magistrate, and when he turns the crosshairs on the people of God, then you have to separate from him. And it's actually treason against God. To be loyal to a civil magistrate in that situation is to commit treason against God. Well, and it's significant that you touch on that because I think in this day, the divide that exists within the context of the professing church is significant, so that those who have stood up against government totalitarianism over this issue concerning the virus have been either maligned or betrayed or were actually ashamed and a reproach among those who are the compliant. And so I think even that issue he touches on is relevant for what's happening right now in our day.

You know, it's interesting. He talks about their deception in some really interesting, using some interesting language. And he says, true it is that there was a weakness in them, in that they did not openly resist such cruelty. But then he says, and he says, they employed lies, or at least deception, to excuse themselves before the king. But though there was such a fault in their action, which was worthy of great censure before God, nevertheless God pardoned them and did not fail to recognize the good they showed his poor people in the time of their greatest affliction.

It's just so interesting how he describes their deception. What are your thoughts on that? Well, that opens up a huge can of worms because it gets into whether there's ever a time to righteously employ deception. And I don't know if we're going to solve that one on this particular podcast, But yeah, I mean, I think if there's an opportunity to take a righteous stand that avoids having to employ any kind of deception, then one should certainly do that. And so I think his comment and his handling of that, I think, was sensitive and thoughtful, and so I can't say that I disagree with him.

Yeah, there are other views and it's a long debate to be had, but the position that Verre has taken really throughout the book, it's not isolated this chapter, is that the people of God ought to act with integrity and truthfulness and let the chips fall where they may. So he's just really applying something that he said multiple times in the book to the example of the Hebrew midwives, but the other thing that he's been consistent about communicating is that God is not waiting for perfect actions, perfect service. He actually commands the faith of these Hebrew midwives, and they're actually praised for acts that incorporate weaknesses according to Verre. And that really matches up with the Bible in the sense that as the servants of God, many things we do with imperfections, with mixed motives, and yet God is gracious to His people. Yeah, and also for those of you who are listening, Verre also has in this book in When to Disobey, he has an entire chapter on is it ever appropriate to lie.

And he goes to examples from the Apostle Paul to the Lord Jesus Christ and others, including these that we're discussing now. And He nuances their situations and explains His understanding of the situation. But he makes it clear the Lord Jesus used what you might call deception, not answering questions and things like that. Read that chapter. There's just some really remarkable insight there.

Yeah, it's helpful. That's a helpful chapter. We have a podcast on that too, so you can check that out. Okay, so what else here about the midwives do we need to learn? Well, I'll just make this last comment.

It's consistent with what you were saying, Jason, about this matter of their deception. He bears with us in our infirmities and our imperfections and doesn't fail to find pleasure in the services we render to His children out of the fear and love and reverence we bear to Him. God is kind. We don't do anything perfectly, and I think that's how He treats the situation with the deception of the Hebrew midwives. And so, the Egyptian taskmasters, let's go to that case.

This is kind of another case study. The taskmasters who were Israelites, they obeyed God by not being too hard, excessively hard, on their servants. Pharaoh wanted very harsh treatment, very demanding treatment, and the Hebrew taskmasters who were in charge under Pharaoh's appointment were moderate, and they were disobedient. So what Veres is saying is that they were disobeying Pharaoh, but they were being faithful to God by treating their brethren properly. That's his, in essence, the argument there.

Any thoughts about this? Pete It's interesting. He speaks to their willingness to be his representatives requiring service of him, and they were willing to do that while they could do it with a clear conscience and not having to violate clearly what the Word of God said. But when he crossed the line and required something of them that was impossible, then they actually intervened on behalf of their countrymen. And I don't think he uses the word interposition, but really is an instance of interposition where people who have a given and legitimate authority, Pharaoh had actually given it to them when they're faced with pushing tyranny down below them, stand up for the people that they're over.

Right. And that's what's lacking in our day, isn't it? I mean, when you look at what's happening, at least in our country, there just is no one of a lesser magistrate that is pushing up against those above them. So from the prime minister to the premiers to, you know, the MLAs that govern on a more local level to law enforcement, everyone is walking in lockstep obeying the orders of the one above them to the point that the only ones, you know, potentially standing up in some cases are the pastors who are refusing to force their congregations into a submission to that tyranny. And hey, these guys were beaten.

The Egyptians beat the Israelite overseers. That was the punishment that they received. Kind of like what happened with you. You were taken to prison because you wouldn't implement the government order in the way that they had ordained it. So VRA makes a point that they suffered for it.

They stood up for their brethren and it cost them beatings as a result. So early in the lockdown, the COVID lockdown in Franklin County, I live in Franklin County and in a little town that's nothing in Youngsville, but our mayor, when Franklin County put a curfew in effect, this was early, early on, our mayor said, yeah, the curfew is not in effect here. It is really the doctrine of interposition. He said, nope, not where I have a legitimate authority. You can't do that here.

I say he can now be mayor for life. He is loved in Youngsville. Yeah, and you're seeing with Ron DeSantis, for example, and the way he's pushing back against your president, Joe Biden. I think that ends up being a helpful example of it as well, at least from our perspective here in Alberta, as we watch from afar. And you can see it in other examples like Kristi Noem in South Dakota.

And you're just so thankful for governors that function that way. I think it's an extremely important and necessary stand when you can protect the people allotted to your charge from a tyrannical government. To stand between the government and your people in whatever capacity that is, whether it's in the context of the local church, or whether it's in the context of the constituents that a politician represents. I think that is a courageous and I'll even say masculine thing to do. You know, we're charged in 1 Corinthians 16 to act like men.

You would have to conclude that the charge to act like men applies to all across the board, men and women, that there's a call to be courageous. And so I think it's an incredibly adorning quality to see that in a human being. And you know, Verre makes the point along those lines of what you're saying. They obeyed everything they could without violating their duty to their brethren. So They obeyed much, but only to a point.

Right. And that's what got them their beatings as a result. Okay, so that's that. Let's move to Rahab. So Rahab, as Veres says, has been greatly renowned in Scripture.

God blessed her, just like he blessed the midwives as well. And so there she was as a trader in her own city. She came to the place where she would risk her life by being a traitor in order to serve God. So that's her situation. So what do we learn from her?

Well, she's obviously a courageous woman and she had heard what Yahweh had done in in Egypt and wiping out the Egyptian army and so she she had the fear of God in her heart based on what she heard the God of the Israelites can do and had done. And so, I think we see a woman who was coming to a saving knowledge of Yahweh and as a result was taking the stand that that moment demanded of her in light of the fact that she would be in a city that would otherwise not be in alignment with her newfound faith. Yeah, I don't know if it's skipping to the end too quickly, but we have the knowledge of how it ends up when the walls of Jericho comes down, she's saved, her family's saved. And then we know from Matthew chapter 1, the genealogy of Jesus, that an Israelite man takes her for his wife, and she becomes in the family tree of King David and the Lord Jesus. Pete And she's another one of those that lied, and Verre says that the Spirit of God bears witness that what she did there was done in faith.

And then he qualifies it just like he does with the Hebrew midwives. Isn't it interesting, you know, of the civil disobedience pastor text in the Bible, you have these three women, you have Rahab, you have the Hebrew midwives, and you have Esther. You have these strong women, these mighty women of God who are in the midst of the narrative. And I'm sure you felt the strength and the help of your wife. She seemed to be a resolute, biblically thinking kind of woman.

You know, that's what you need. I have a wife like that. She's fearless, she doesn't fear man. You know, I'm way more fearful of man than she is. And it's just so good to have a woman who believes that God is sovereign and God is good, and you just should obey him no matter what.

Well, that's what Rahab became, even in the infancy of her faith. Well, we have a historical example from Corrie Tenboom's life, her sister being honest and saying, no, we have Jews hiding under the table to the soldiers who would come in and they didn't believe her and they left. And so there's an example where she told the truth and God delivered them all the same. And So you have examples like that which do provide some support for just taking a righteous stand no matter what comes. And I think, yeah, you know, we talked about this a little bit, didn't we, before we recorded and We talked about some of the challenges that are upon us and things that are worth considering, but I do resonate, Jason, with what you said a moment ago.

I think you were quoting for Ray in that we just do what's right, come what may. And So that resonates with me. And so without, you know, indicting Rahab or the Hebrew midwives, a case can be made that God could have delivered all the same through a different means, had she employed the truth, had they employed the truth. Amen. Okay, so then the last example is Jonathan, who was aiding David, really in defiance of his father, Saul.

And Verre goes to some significant detail for the way that Jonathan really was behaving honorably in trying to bring his father to have a better view of David and also helping David to keep his skin. But he was defying his father. He was, in Verre's view, disobeying the civil magistrate who was his father, Saul. Yeah, Verre says that looking through a human lens he's condemned on two fronts, one defying his father, two defying the king, they were one and the same. But then he ends up saying this, talking about Jonathan, for he, Jonathan, was also led by another spirit and he feared God more than he feared his father.

If Jonathan had done otherwise, not only would he have taken up arms against God and done great wrong to David as Saul did, but he would also have poorly rendered his duty to his father. That's such an interesting comment. And he continues, for what greater good could he have done him than to strive to hinder him from fighting against God and harming his servants and staining his hands with the blood of innocent men? How could he better show himself more loyal both to his father and to the entire kingdom than to be engaged in breaking the evil schemes of his father and of all the flatterers who were in his court?" So he's making this point here, which is a really, really interesting point, that in disobeying His Father and the King, it was the best way He could serve His Father and the King to keep His hands free from innocent blood, which He wanted to shed. Isn't that amazing.

Okay, so we've just got a couple minutes left here. Let's sort of wrap it up. Maybe we'll start with you, James. As you look at these four examples, What do you relate with the most with the situation you've just experienced? You know, I'm not even sure if I necessarily can look at any one and maybe the Jonathan example, because I know that as I looked at what our, how we could best love our governing authorities, the stand that we took, I believed, was that because we were testifying that its deeds were evil.

And so we were loving them by pointing them to the judgment that is to come and their need for Christ. And so probably Jonathan is the one that I identify with the most, just based on this discussion. And we weren't forced to lie or anything like that in our handling of the governing authorities, and not that we would have had we been forced to, but you know what I mean, I think Jonathan's situation applies the best. It's very interesting. You were testifying that their deeds were evil.

That's just one of the great responsibilities we have in the world to speak the truth about the things that are happening and to testify to what is true. But yeah, that's a wonderful connection. Jason, what are your thoughts? So Verre takes us to the end of Jonathan and Saul's life. So, it is really helpful to think about how all this ended.

It ended with Jonathan dying side by side with his father, fighting the Philistines on Mount Gilboa. Jonathan was no traitor. Jonathan was the best citizen in his father's kingdom. And at certain points, that involved Jonathan defying both his father and his king. Yeah, what does it mean to be a good citizen?

Well, it means to be like a Hebrew midwife. It means to be like a Hebrew taskmaster. It means to be like Rahab. And it means to be like Jonathan. So we have lots of contours and colors to the examples that we're given.

God is so kind to give these things to us now. Really for us, the first time where our jurisdictional authority has been challenged before God, and it's just so good to have God giving us examples that we can learn from. So, James, thank you so much for joining us. It's a blessing. Yeah, thank you for having me, guys.

Appreciate it. We really appreciate what you've done there. We know that the battle's not over, and we'll continue to pray for you. Thank you so much. God bless.

You too. Well, thank you for joining us on the Church and Family Life podcast, and we'll see you again next time. Thanks for listening to the Church and Family Life podcast. We have thousands of resources on our website, announcements of conferences coming up. Hope you can join us.

Go to churchandfamilylife.com. See you next Monday for our next broadcast of the Church and Family Life podcast.