When persecution comes, Viret wants us to examine ourselves. In chapter 14 of When to Disobey, He urges us to examine how we have loved one another (or not loved one another) and how we may have sinned against one another. The reality is that God sends trouble to those who have departed from His ways. When we are being treated poorly, we ought to think about how we have treated our neighbors and our brethren before pointing fingers at the world.

Well, welcome to the Church and Family Life podcast. Church and Family Life exists to proclaim the sufficiency of Scripture. And Jason, here we are to discuss chapter 14 in this book. Can't wait. Okay, when to disobey, case studies in tyranny, insurrection, and obedience to God.

We have a study guide for this book as well that asks lots of questions and gives some context. But so we're now in chapter 14 and we have James Coates with us to discuss it. Good to be here guys, thanks for having me. Welcome James, James is a pastor at Grace Life Church in Alberta, Canada. He was incarcerated and had his church shut down in a country that at least we here down south in America think is a lot more corrupt than America.

This brings us to the subject of this podcast. Verre, in chapter 14, takes us to fundamental issues. He urges his readers to consider their own sins and the sins of their nation. For example, we shouldn't be considering the sins of Canada, we should be considering the sins of America and our own sins. And Viré in this chapter wants us to examine ourselves.

It's interesting how he takes us to a really particular issue of loving one another. So We can talk about that. But when persecution comes and we're being treated poorly, where there's overreach, we ought to think about how we've treated one another. I think that's sort of where he's headed with this. So he frames this in terms of a conversation.

He likes to do this. He has Titus, who's the disciple, and he has David, who's the disciple-maker. He's the teacher. So he has Titus make a statement and ask a question, and then his mentor, David, comes in and clears things up. Titus begins with this question, I am not surprised that God gave a free reign to these tyrants in the days of the early church to persecute Christians, since the Christians made such a poor use of the word of God in which they had been instructed, and they couldn't even agree among themselves.

So that's how he starts this whole discussion. I think what Verre would have us do is not, when faced with tyranny, not ask first, how do we get rid of the tyrant? Or second, how do we push back on the tyranny? But ask first before anything else, why are we being subjected to tyranny? And it really is a very refreshing outlook where you look first to heaven and say, God, why are you doing this?

It's an acknowledgement of the sovereignty of God, I think, the direction he would point us in. Yeah, I think that's valid. I think that when I survey what's happening in our country, for example, it seems evident to me that the government we have is a reflection of the citizenry and that this is the judgment of God upon our country. We have refused to acknowledge God and give him honor. And we know in Romans one what happens as a nation does that.

They're given over to their depravity. And you reach the point of a depraved mind when all is said and done. And I think we're seeing that we're there and the government that is in place at this point in time is a government that is tyrannically taking advantage of that depraved mind. And so we're seeing that impact and the effects of that on our congregation or rather on our country. Now we can then go a little bit more personal and say, okay, well, if that's what's happening in our country at this point in time, then what's my contribution to that?

And I think that's where someone like myself has to consider whether I've been as politically involved as I should have been, you know, as far as my preaching ministry is concerned, was I active enough in pointing out the unrighteousness of our land and making that faithful contribution to the fabric of our society? And I would say that typically my normal bent with respect to politics and ministry has been to not be too involved in it. Stay in my lane, stay focused on my ministry. And so I think this whole season has lent itself to having to do some soul-searching on my end as far as whether I've been as well-rounded in the focus of my preaching ministry as I should have been. I feel the same way, you know, I don't think I've been as helpful to our people.

Both of our countries, we've been in radical defiance against God's moral structure. We've been in radical defiance against the family, against manhood and womanhood. We've really defied a sense of God's sovereignty over the creation, and we think that we're now going to control the weather. We're defying God's wisdom about relationships, and we're telling people to be offended at one another because of colors of skin and levels of oppression and critical race theory. I mean, this is a complete unraveling of love in the society, unraveling of morality, and really an unraveling of a sense of God, of the majesty and the power of God.

So, you know, we've been defying God, And so why is all this happening? Well, what we learn, I mean, I don't believe this is a plague that's really upon us, but let's just say it is a plague. God brings plagues to judge His people for a specific sense, and he stops plagues when they stop sinning and they repent. It's really very simple what the Bible says about that kind of thing. So I think, you know, Veré is driving us back to our own sins, And I've thought about my own sins as a pastor, the things that I have not done that I should have done, things that I should have been aware of.

I think that's what Veré is driving us back to. I think the natural American instinct when faced with tyranny is to say, the problem is Americans are putting up with tyranny and Americans shouldn't be putting up with tyranny. And I'm one of those who thinks actually we should be defending our rights and asserting our rights. But that said, when you've been murdering a million of your babies lawfully for 50 years, and then you trample on the definition of marriage, which is supposed to reflect Christ and the church, and you have churches that won't come out from the world and be separate, to then look at tyranny and say, the reason is that we're putting up with it and we shouldn't is way too simplistic of a view. Yeah, amen.

Yeah, no, I think that in effect nails it. And it's unfortunate to see where we are. And you wrestle with whether or not either one of our nations can come back from this. I can just say from the Canadian perspective, although I almost self-identify as American now, that there's more optimism in your country with respect to the fabric of your constitution and the moral compass that does remain among a significant portion of the country. Even your judicial system seems to be functioning in a manner that shows a little bit more honesty and truth.

And, but yeah, when I look at our country, we just can't appeal to any level of our society from the church to our governing authorities, to our law enforcement, to our media, across the board. We just, we don't have those who are prepared to uphold the true standard of righteousness. Pete Yeah, that's so true. You know, also, he drives this discussion to the disunity in the early church. He's making a direct connection between the disunity in the early church, I am of Paul, I am of Paulus, to the persecutions that the church was experiencing there.

So, Verre brings this really close to home. Listen to this quote on 167. We often see this happen among Christians, indeed, even among those of us who boast of being part of the Reformed Church, for there are a great many who are content with the name alone and who can't endure either reformation or discipline, but who instead desire to enjoy as much license as they please and reject all correction." So, being Verre brings it right into our own kitchen. He's not content with just saying, I'm part of a nation that has sinned. He's saying, hey, reform churches are just like this.

Reform churches like to talk about reform, but don't like to reform very much. They like to talk about discipline, but they don't like to be disciplined for their own sins. That was one of the most convicting parts of this chapter, because, I mean, evangelicalism is so divided. And I mean, I hold views that are very, very disturbing to lots of evangelicals. And so I find myself on the opposite side of a lot of discussions.

And so I'm just, you know, wondering, you know, thinking this through. He says, yet they still couldn't agree with one another because they fought among themselves. And he's talking about in Exodus chapter 2 when the Hebrews are fighting against one another. And so what are your thoughts about this? I mean, there's so much division in evangelicalism, and I think many of us have thought, what does the word even mean anymore?

It's lost its definition. But he's just talking about dissensions between ourselves because of arrogance. Yes, and amen. S and ouch, you know. Our church most recently went through the Gospel of John, and when you hit the high priestly prayer in John chapter 17, the prayer is for unity.

And just in terms of things that dishonor God, displease God, quench the Spirit of God among His people. The types of disunities that we foster among ourselves has to be viewed as a reason why God might send a tyrant. He also says, tyrants glory in our divisions. They love to see a split. Yeah, you know, I got to be honest as I think through this a little bit and just try and even apply it to our day and age.

I think division is impossible to avoid at this point in time. Doctrine is divisive. The truth divides from error. And so, I think this is a time when we have to stand rock solid on the Word of God. And that stand is going to necessarily result in division among the ranks of those claiming to be followers of Christ.

And I think that division at times is necessary for the truth to shine bright, for the people of God to be distinguishable from the world and from the false professing church. So, you know, I think division is in one sense, an awful thing In the context of our local churches, I mean, division is incredibly destructive and ought to be addressed and dealt with severely. You have the exhortation in Ephesians 4 to preserve the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace. But when it comes to some of the division that exists on a broader scale, I think that division needs to be handled in a Christ-like manner, but it's actually a necessary reality. Well, we saw that with your situation.

We saw many churches in Canada rise up against you because of what you did. So that's the kind of division that we would say is good division. But how did you work through that? Because you were attacked from many, many sides because of what you did by keeping your church open. Yeah, to be honest, it's not that difficult.

I mean, when you settle in your mind and heart before the Lord what He is calling of you, then you just walk in obedience to Him. And it says, you know, we talked about previously that you let the chips fall where they may. So if you are totally settled that what you're doing is the right thing, you couldn't care any less what another pastor has to say about that. When you stand before Christ at his judgment seat, you're going to be there alone and you're going to get assessed for your faithfulness on your own. There isn't gonna be anybody else there to chime in on what they think the judgment ought to be.

There will be one judgment. It's gonna be the judgment of the Lord of glory. And you are living for that moment where you stand before Him and He commends you for your faithfulness. And so the negativity that's come our way has not been that difficult to resist or to not have it affect me in a negative way. The part of it that might rub me is the impact that it has on lesser discerning and unsuspecting people who would be privy to the discussion and would be continually led into error on some of these issues.

But as far as the negativity that's come my way. I've had a good example too in my life as far as seeing how you should respond to that kind of criticism. John MacArthur is a man that has mentored me from afar And so I can look at the way that he's been criticized for his stands and it doesn't seem to bother him at all. Yeah, that's been as a light, hasn't it? What are some of the ways he's helped you?

Well, I think he's shown me that you don't have to respond to every criticism that comes your way. And so as things are taking place and you take a stand or you preach a sermon or whatever the case may be, and lots of folks are either demanding a response or are chiming in on what you've done or what you've said, you can just let that go and let that whole moment pass and you just continue to stay focused on your task and be faithful where you are. And those moments just come and go and there's really not a whole lot to be unsettled about. So, you know, he's talking about really loving one another in this whole situation. You talked about, James, preserving the unity of the Spirit in your local church.

That's something that you have, you know, personal governance and responsibility for. That's a little bit different than the whole outside world that looks in on you without hardly any information to make whatever judgments they want to make. I don't think Verre is saying that everybody has to feel good about you. That's not what he's saying. I think what he's talking about is the ways that we have not loved one another.

One way that you love one another is by speaking the truth, and that truth can actually divide. But I was just taken aback at his proposition that God sends tyrants often because his people haven't figured out how to love one another. Well, and even 1 Peter 4 indicates that judgment begins with the household of God. And so there's a testing and a sifting of the household of God that takes place even prior to the judgment of the unsaved. And so there's no question that God is going to test his people, that we're going to go through difficult times and seasons.

It's going to test the integrity of our character, of our faith, of our love for Christ. And so even as we go through those times and seasons of judgment, it isn't even necessarily because of some obvious and evident inadequacy in our lives. It's just part of what it means to be a follower of Christ. James, what were some of the ways you felt your church was tested during this time? Well, we were tested in terms of whether we were going to be willing to stand on the Word of God, whether we were going to be willing to fear God in the face of consequences and the consequences of man.

We were tested as it related to whether we were going to be willing to be faithful to Christ in the midst of the vitriol coming from many in the community around us. We were tested as to whether we were gonna be willing to stand in light of the way the media was painting us. We were really just tested in terms of, were we gonna be willing to be faithful to Christ no matter the cost? And that was just round one last year. I mean, the Lord knows what the future holds.

We could be entering into round two in a couple of weeks. So we haven't gotten to the end of the race yet, we still got the race to finish, and until we get to the end, you know, we haven't truly earned the stripes of our faithfulness. Amen. Well, what's really clear is that God sends all things for the good of His people, to sanctify them, to bring them to repentance, to help them to be more faithful. I think these kinds of things have really helped a lot of churches to be a lot clearer about obedience and about how critical it is that God's commands are carried out in the church.

And as Veré points out, he often does it in order to expose our lack of love for one another and our lack of fidelity to whatever He's commanded. So Veré is very clear here. You can get your whole focus on how bad the tyrant is, but you should also think about how bad you are and repent of your sins. So I think these are times for that, for sure. Okay, well, James, thank you so much for joining us.

I really, really appreciate your time, and we're grateful for the stand you have taken, and we'll all be praying about round two of this whole thing. So, we'll be a lot clearer going into round two as a result of round one. I'm really grateful we had a kind of a light affliction to sort of get us thinking in the right direction. Well, thanks for having me, guys. Appreciate your support and prayers and grateful to be here.

Good. God bless you. Okay, Jason, thanks again. Pleasure. And thanks for joining us on the Church and Family Life podcast.

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