When a pastor’s convictions change and grow, what happens in the church he serves? This is part of Carlton McLeod’s story, and the remarkable trajectory of reformation in his church in Chesapeake, VA. In this podcast, Carlton tells the story of his own changing understandings of the church and how he continues to lead his church through progressive sanctification by the Word of God.

Welcome to the Church and Family Life podcast. Church and Family Life exists to proclaim the sufficiency of Scripture. And in order to talk about that today, we have Dr. Carlton McLeod. Carlton is a pastor at Calvary Reformation Church in Chesapeake, Virginia.

Hey Carlton, how you doing? Hey Scott, how you guys doing? Hey Jason. Hello. Good to see you.

So yeah, Jason, we have one of our favorite people in the whole world sitting right here. Indeed. We do. Humbling guys, humbling, love you two. You know, the first time I met Carlton, I thought, Oh, man, how come it took so long to meet this guy?

And being in his church and meeting some of his people, I say this to people all the time, Carlton is one of the most courageous pastors I've ever known, but he's a pastor. He's a shepherd. And I've just been admiring just the way he's led his church through the ups and downs of reforming the church. You know, Carlton, how long ago was it that you started d6reformation.org? How long ago was that?

Yeah, thanks for the kind words and the question. It's been about a decade or so. I mean, the mindset was certainly there a little bit before that. Maybe the website, you know, seven or eight years somewhere in there, but it was going on in the church probably for at least a decade now. I have a shirt with D6 ref, a t-shirt.

We did a conference, right? It was you and me and Vodi Bakka. We did. That's right. And we have this great picture of us wearing these blue D6 shirts.

I have the shirt today. And I have a picture of that. You, me, and Vodi on my office wall. Very fond memory there. That was really special.

But so, you know, Carlton has been leading his church in Reformation for a long time. Hey, so tell us about the D, about D6reformation.org. Yeah, it's just a website we put together, Scott, to try to codify a little bit of the things that few of the things that we learned from scripture as it relates to parents and children and the discipleship and the education of children. In some of the, you know, kind of the areas in which I grew up, this wasn't something that was connected very well, at least in my growing up. And so we try to make it really, really simple to lay out a few of the passages of Scripture.

What did God say to parents concerning how they ought to raise up their children, the fear and admonition of the Lord. And then what are some of the things that they could do? What are some of the pitfalls? What are some of the tools available out there to try to help parents to do just what the Bible commands? And so, yeah, it's meant to be kind of a primer for parents who hadn't been down this road before to kind of open them up to some of the things that we experienced.

Yeah, so you ought to go to d6reformation.org because Carlton is kind of the Sultan of doctoral practicality. You'll find a lot of really practical things on that website. But it really... I don't know how you follow that. Yeah.

But that website reflected a trajectory that God put you on to address things that really had been ignored in broad evangelicalism and in the crowd that you were, you know, your heritage. And I think all of us here have broken away from some of the marks of the heritage of our past, the seeker-sensitive movement, some of the great movements that have washed through evangelicalism, kind of the entertainment-driven, program-driven church life. We've come out of those seasons in the history of the church over the last 50 years. And so, and you did too. So, just tell us about that.

How did d6reformation.org come about? Well, you know, it's for me, it was, you know, one part of a greater ongoing Reformation that started in my own heart, first of all, and then in the heart of our leaders, and then in the broader church. I guess it came about just by reading through scripture and, you know, making the decision to start preaching in books instead of bits as the saying goes. I think it's one of the big keys to this whole reforming, always reforming thing is to always be getting more of the Word of God in you, you know, line upon line, precept upon precept. And when we started that practice, we were confronted with things in context that we had not really seen that way before.

And that was, you know, it was good, you know, obviously, but it was challenging too, because when you, you know, if you're some of you are listening who are pastors and who are church leaders, turning a church or moving a church or reforming a church, a group of people with different opinions and ideas and experiences that can be extraordinarily difficult. So for us, it just started with just kind of being overwhelmed at the love of God in Christ that He would save sinners like us and then taking His book that He has preserved for us and has lovingly given us and just walking through it just line by line, line by line, and going, okay, we're doing okay there. Oh man, we're not even doing that at all. And so that was really kind of the part. It was really just that simple and just that difficult.

So Carl, now I have my Bible open right now to 1 Timothy chapter three. In 1 Timothy chapter three, Paul writes to Timothy and tells him why he's writing, and 1 Timothy 3.15 says this, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And I think that's a verse that goes exactly to what you're saying and has been kind of increasingly formative to the three of us in time as we realize what the implication of that verse is. The implication of a verse that says how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God is that not everything's appropriate. There are ways that God wants us to conduct ourselves in His house, and He has revealed those ways to us in His Word.

And so, we've got to evaluate everything through the lens of Scripture, and what we want is, over time, to be conforming more and more and more and more closely to what He's given us in His Word. That's exactly right. Yeah, and this is the whole matter of the sufficiency of Scripture. I think over time, it dawned on us that Scripture was sufficient. It was all that we needed, And it was very humbling because we realized that we were doing a lot of things that were contrary to Scripture, and that we needed to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God through saying, scripture is sufficient, which provides both lots of limitations and freedoms.

But it's the limitations that man wants to break out of and to create all kinds of inventions and of his own creativity. And we've come out of an era of Christianity that's just full of creativity. But God has not called us to creativity. God's called us to faithfulness and obedience. So the whole matter of the sufficiency of Scripture that man shall not live by bread alone, but every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God and what you just read, Jason, about just the absolute sufficiency of scripture.

It is the most important issue in the church all the time. One of the things we did, you know, first of all, when I'm on a podcast with Jason Dome, you're not the only one with your Bible open, my friend. Bring it on. Because I know Jason's here and that literally at the top of the page here, if you can't see what I see, that's the very first scripture that I have written here just in my preparation notes for this podcast. And what I did was I just took a bunch of the verses that when we were coming into this mindset, we will work in our way through.

And that was a pivotal one at our church. Another one was in 2 Timothy 1 verse 13, hold fast the form of sound words or some versions hold to the pattern, right? Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou has heard of me in faith and love, which is in Christ Jesus. That whole idea of holding on to the apostolic pattern, hold on to the words of scripture. Don't, you know, move this way or that way.

He tells the church at Thessalonica, second Thessalonians 2.15, therefore, brethren stand fast and hold the traditions, if you will, which ye have been taught, whether by word or by our epistle. Those verses meant a lot to us. And I think they mean a lot to many churches as they're dealing with cultural norms and all the evils of the day and the untruths of the day. And then here you have in the word of God, wait a minute guys, hold on to what I says, hold on to the scriptures, hold on to the word of God. That meant a lot to us.

And it was really a blessing for me as a man who was reforming in his own heart to be able to point the saints to maybe verses that were never subjects of sermons, right? Were never, you know, something that they had, they maybe read it quickly in a year Bible reading or something, but they never stopped and thought, we've been commanded to hold fast to sound doctrine, but also to the patterns of Scripture. And I'll just add one more text. At the end of Revelation, there's this very stern warning about adding and subtracting from the Word of God. That was very defining for me along the way as well.

So let's talk about specifics. What were the things that we saw needed to be reformed? It all goes back to the fact that Scripture is sufficient in all the texts that you've just quoted. But let's just talk about some of the practical things that needed to be reshaped. Yeah, I think one of the big ones for us and one of the reasons that you and I came together providentially, Scott, was my story in large part has to do with reforming in the area of raising up children, discipling children, and just being so saddened and disheartened by so many of the losses of precious children to the world, you know, in the early part of our ministry and just being at my wits end really, and just running back by God's grace to the word and running into books, you know, by Vody and others and then being introduced to you.

I think that was a huge area where I had not, I'd read those verses a zillion times but didn't see the application, didn't see how it all connected and what God's heart really was for parents to really be the primary drivers of their children's education and worldview and discipleship. And that was a massive area of reformation at least at our church. Yeah, I would say for us over the years, having corporate worship services where you have a direct line from anything you're doing in that worship service to something that's so well established. No stretching, no expanding, no reaches. I think everything we do in public worship, of course, public worship is only one category of life, but on the other hand, it's a really important category of life, and it's a particularly prescribed category of life where it's clear in the Bible that God cares very much how He's worshiped corporately by His people.

So, we want everything that happens in that hour or two hours, however long your service, to have a straight line to something that's really on sound, sound footing in the Word of God, and especially the New Testament patterns. Yeah. I think it was John Knox who said all inventions from the brain of man and the worship of God are idolatry. And I think that I realized that we were doing a lot of things in our worship services that were idolatry. They were the inventions of man.

And so, you know, having to reshape the way that we thought about the worship of God, the gathered people worshiping, to have it regulated by the Word of God was really critical. There are so many issues. You mentioned the raising of children, raising children, you know, by the Word of God. You know, reestablishing a sense of what a marriage is, where you have the roles that are in proper order, where husbands know who they are and they have a role and wives the same. Those were just things that our culture had had drifted so far.

Even the gospel itself. Most of us grew up in a world where people thought, accept Jesus Christ into your heart and you're saved. And I think we realized the Bible doesn't say that. The Bible talks about conversion in a very different terminology. And so, all the way from even the communication of the gospel in our preaching to the way we raise our children.

I mean, even the way that we conducted churches, we realized that in the Word of God, the church is a generational community. It's not a fragmented community where you send the old people into their corner and the young people into their corner and creating divisions in the church. So there were a lot of things that over the years we've had to address. Amen. So Scott, here's a question I wanted to put to Carlton, and it's this.

When you talk about church reformation, I can't help but think about the reformation. You know, Martin Luther and that generation that reclaimed so much. Carlton, in what ways would you say the things that the propositions that we're trying to advance together are similar to the Reformation and in what ways would you say it's different? That's a big one. Difference is, obviously, Luther, his 95 Thesis was just absolutely filled with reference to the Roman Catholic Church.

And that's probably not what we're fighting, something completely different. Right. So I would say just that jumps out at me as an immediate difference in terms of the actual entity. But some of the authoritarianism, some of the, you know, some of the evil practices, some of the misappropriation, some of those principles are exactly the same. So as we're fighting for, you know, kind of the purity of scripture, which is what he was, he was driving at, And of course you see the other reformers, his contemporaries and after him continue on.

But, you know, we're, that part feels, you know, if you will, somewhat similar. We're pointing to the same book. We have a tendency to slip off into the same deification of man or adding to the gospel Or you need this much money for this or the prosperity elements that slip in so sometimes it feels like you know A good a 2021 95 theses there it really does and so similar principally I think because we're always fighting against man's evil inclinations in our flesh, although we don't maybe talk as much about the historical entity of the Catholic Church. Well, I reached a point where I ended up thinking that the modern church had really become a lot like Rome, because Rome had become a house of inventions, where you had prayers to the saints, you had pilgrimages, you had holy days, you had feast days, you had prayers for the dead, you had pictures of Christ, you had icons, you had all kinds of fanciful church offices, archdeacons, rural deacons, canon lawyers, you know, dozens and dozens of, you know, created offices in the church. And of course, in response to that, we thought, Well, the Bible only has two offices in the church, Elder and Deacon.

So I think that modern evangelicalism has really followed in the inventiveness of the Roman Catholic church. We think the same way. That's why every conversation with a Roman Catholic ends up in a debate, ends up in a debate over the sufficiency of Scripture. Is Scripture sufficient or is tradition sufficient? Yeah, I agree.

I think at their hearts, both meaning the Reformation and what we're trying to advance is simply a back to the Bible movement. The whole concept behind always reforming is that you take the reformations that were handed to you, the ground that has already been recaptured, and I think we would all acknowledge the things they were recapturing in the 1500s were more consequential than what we are because it was a matter of heaven and hell. Wrong ways to salvation were being overturned by the Reformers then, but we take their Reformations as building blocks, and then it's our responsibility to build on the Reformations that we've been handed. And it will be the responsibility of our children to build on the Reformations that we hand them. You're never done reforming.

There's so many blind spots that we're not even aware of in ways that we have not conformed to Scripture, and maybe we'll hand reformations to our children that will allow them to see things that we never saw. Amen. Amen. Amen. I'd also say that the need is great.

I mean, again, I agree with you on the consequences, but the need is so great. If you look out at the cultural landscape, you know, today in some ways there are some many false ways of salvation being offered. There are many idol gods being worshiped. There are many people bowing down to the bails of the day. And so principally, as we said, I think we're all kind of saying the same thing, principally that the need is just as great.

It's always a tendency to put man's word over God's word. It's just always there. It's always a fight in every generation. Scott taught one time that every generation is at war with God. Every culture is at war with God.

It's so true. There's every generation, every culture, the tendency is to elevate man and kind of deify man and demote God. And so that's why the Reformation must continue until the Lord calls us home or returns. Carlton, as someone who's been through this loop, what advice would you give to a pastor who wakes up tomorrow morning and realizes really for the first time, hey, there are necessary reformations that I have to undertake right away, but I also don't want to pull the church that I'm serving apart at the seams either. Yeah, yeah, I'd say go back to bed.

All right, well, you know, I've learned a ton here, you know, And maybe we could all talk about it one day, but I've actually have thought about this over the years a lot. Some things that I think I did well when my kind of awakening came, if you will, and some things that I think I did pretty poorly. I would tell him, first of all, just bathe everything in prayer. Just wake up and then hit your knees because you're going to need every bit of spiritual strength that the Lord will give you for the journey ahead. And I don't know if you want to get to all of it, but I would just, that's a big one, just bathing everything in prayer.

And I would say talking to his leaders, you know, talking to the fellow elders, maybe even, you know, broader than that at some point, you know, with the deacons, if there are any deacons in the church, start dealing with that. And then if you can have some kind of a broad-based unity there. Just start preaching, man. Start preaching like crazy, going through, taking the church through these areas of reformation so that they can see it for themselves. And that's just the first three.

I mean, there are other things, but prayer is massive through that process. Talking to those that walk shoulder to shoulder with you is huge. And then just taking your time and preaching through the text so that the Holy Spirit, you know, kind of works in the hearts of his people in these areas. I think that's a good way to get the ball rolling. Right.

Yeah. And, you know, helping your people to think biblically about everything, to help them think from Genesis to Revelation whenever a subject comes up, not what they think, not what they're, what they grew up with. And sort of teach them the Desert Island Challenge. You know the Desert Island Challenge. I do.

You do. Do you know the Desert Island Challenge? I don't. I don't know what the Desert Island Challenge is. You actually do know the Desert Island Challenge, but you don't know by its name.

Here's the Desert Island... Oh, yeah. Okay, yeah. I think I got it. Here's the Desert Island challenge.

If you were stuck on a desert island and all you had was the Bible, how would you do your church? How would you do your family? How would you do anything? You know, it's for us to do what Jeremiah taught us. Do not learn the ways of the Gentiles.

Woe to those who seek counsel, but not of me. We need the Lord. We need the Lord's Word. And thankfully, God's given us everything we need for life and godliness. And that's the sufficiency of Scripture.

So that's what we're talking about, and that's what we want to keep learning. We're not done yet. God's not done with us yet, and our churches are not finished reforming at all. But thank the Lord, He's given us His Word to keep us moving in the right direction. So, Carlton, hey, we're just so thankful for you and all that's happened up at your church over the years.

It's been a marvel to me to see it. To God be the glory. To God be the glory. And frankly, you know, we're sitting here now 10, 20 years later, and you know what? We're seeing a lot of fruit.

I'm seeing a lot of fruit all around. I know Jason is, I know you are too. Fruit that we never saw before. It's amazing. You serve a great God.

We do. And He ultimately is the heart of Reformation, just love for Him, love for His laws, love for His commandments. And if a church has that and they truly have it, they don't just say it, but they truly have it. If they truly esteem the Lord's precepts, then Reformation will come. Amen.

Okay, well, that's it, That's a wrap. So thank you for joining us at the Church and Family Life podcast, and thanks, Jason and Carlton. What a blessing it's been to begin this journey, and we're still on it. Amen. Okay, we'll see you next time.

Thanks for listening to the Church and Family Life podcast. We have thousands of resources on our website, announcements of conferences coming up. Hope you can join us. Go to churchandfamilylife.com. See you next Monday for our next broadcast of the Church and Family Life podcast.