How should parents respond to a defiant child who spurns their discipline? When should the child stay in the home? And at what point of stubborn rebellion should they be deemed “incorrigible” and be put out—for their own good and the sanctity of the family? These are vexing questions for any parent to grapple with, and there are no easy answers. Yet God Himself gave us a pattern to draw from. Join Scott Brown and Jason Dohm, along with special guest Phil Kayser, as they explain God’s fatherly example: He’s slow to anger and patient in disciplining wayward children, giving them many opportunities to repent. But, in extreme cases, where there’s unyielding defiance after repeated correction, He casts them out—with the goal that His discipline, in time, will pierce their hearts and restore them to right fellowship. Voicing a rejection of pop psychology, Scott, Jason, and Phil urge parents to seek the help of godly church leaders, along with other faithful counselors, to navigate these tough waters and call rebellious children to repentance.

Well, welcome to the Church and Family Life podcast. Church and Family Life exists to proclaim the sufficiency of scripture. And today we have one of our dear brothers with us to discuss a really difficult matter. And we have Phil Kiser with us. Hey, Phil.

Hey, brothers. Good to be with you. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. We always appreciate it. So Phil is a pastor of Dominion Covenant Church in Omaha, Nebraska, and long time friend, really a blessing to me.

I've learned a lot from him. By the way, he wrote what I think is one of the best books ever written on dealing with the civil government. What was it? What's the title of that book? Divine Rite of Resistance.

Yeah. And you can get it on the, on your website, Biblical Blueprints website, right? Right, or on Amazon, either way. Or on Amazon, no, that was really, really helpful. I thought you collected up so much of, well, what we needed in a moment of pretty remarkable overreach to the government a couple years ago.

Anyway, so we have a difficult subject to talk about today. We want to talk about what happens when a child becomes incorrigible to the degree that they need to be put out of the home? Or maybe they don't need to be put out of the home. What are some of the issues that need to be considered? What sort of biblical coordinates are there to guide parents and even guide children in dealing with something like this?

We realize that some of the things we might say could be used Wrongly, they could be used sort of as a brick bat against parents or children. And that our intention really is not to try to understand everybody's situation because they're all very difficult and nuanced. There are extreme cases and things like that that we won't know how to deal with. We've been in situations like this before and so we know that they are different and difficult. So we're not trying to provide universal answers for everybody because of the situational nature of these kinds of things.

But I thought it might be good to start with a question about incorrigibility. Let's try to define incorrigibility, the kind of incorrigibility that would cause the question to be raised, whether the child should stay in the home or not. Right, right. Well, that's a great question because I don't think we should jump to the conclusion that a child is incorrigible simply because there's been a rebellion and need for lots of discipline. When you look at God's parenting, Leviticus 26, you know, he's disciplining seven times and they're still not paying attention and seven times more and seven times more and seven times more.

There is a persistence that has to take place. But I would say the kind of incorrigibility that Deuteronomy 21 and even Jesus referred to, uh, a child that, um, has to be taken to civil authorities, uh, back when civil authorities actually dealt with these kinds of things properly, uh, was a child who absolutely would not, uh, submit to discipline or be corrected. Obviously there are patients that needs to take place, but if after a long period of time, there's just absolutely no, um, uh, there continues to be rebellion and you can't control it within the home, then you need to take some further steps. And it's not an immediate taking out of the home. There are many steps that can be taken in between.

And even in that Deuteronomy passage, Deuteronomy 21 that you're referring to, this is that famous passage about the stoning of a son. And I think there may be some, or probably misconceptions about that, that this is a little child and things like that. But no, this is a person who's become so harmful to the family and to the society that many steps are taken. And I think one thing you see manifested in that story of the stoning of the son is the patience of God. God is slow to anger, and so there's a pretty extensive process.

The parents have to come to the place where it's become so bad for the family that they take the child to the priests. And that's not the end of it. And then it finally ends where the whole community has to say the same thing. In other words, it's not simply the parents' authority that's in play here. There's a pretty broad collaboration that this is a very, very harmful, almost impossible situation.

So it goes to the priests, but then the community is required to gather, and then the parents are required to cast the first stone. So this is not, this situation in Deuteronomy 21 is not your generic child who's struggling with rebellion. This is an extreme situation, But of course the child is put out and finally terminally put out. So it's a very extreme situation. How do we think of that passage principally about the incorrigible child?

So this isn't specific to that passage, but this is a point that I wanted to make very early on because I think it's important. I think there are two things that we need to avoid. One is to say when you hit, you've been in these serious waters for a long period of time to where you're thinking it may not even be appropriate for this child to stay in the home. One thing you can say is, it's the parent's fault. When you do that, when you kind of, your reflex takes you to blaming the parents, which are often incorrigible children immediately go there and want the focus to be on the imperfections of the parents.

You have a difficult time then making sense of Isaiah chapter one, where God says that he has nourished and brought up children, but they rebelled. When you automatically say it's the parents' fault, without intending to, you're actually saying false things about God. But the other thing, sort of on the other side of the coin, is to say that parents bear no responsibility for the output of their homes. That's not true either. The whole point of headship is to take responsibility for what has been given to you to nurture and help along.

The reason I think it's important to say that is that parents need to enter a season of consideration like this with humility, knowing that they haven't seized on every opportunity perfectly. There have been missed opportunities, and there have been things that have done wrong that have contributed as well. So you don't want to let the child off the hook by blaming the parents, but parents don't want to let themselves off the hook as if their parenting has been perfect since the earliest days of their child. They need to understand this is the output of our home life. Good point.

Any thoughts on that, Phil? Yeah, I totally agree. You know, Hosea 11 is another passage where it speaks of God's perfect parenting. You know, he's bringing up and training them to walk and the whole nine yards. And yet the children, Number one, don't recognize and appreciate all of the sacrifices that the parent has made.

And number two, end up rebelling so badly that God eventually, but it's a long eventual, right? Eventually, cast them into exile. But he says that his heart yearns for them. His heart is not wanting them. It's a it's a it's a kind of a tough love that says, look, when there is repentance, I've got wide open arms to bring that person back.

And with the kinds of relief that we have at our disposal today, we don't have Deuteronomy 21, but it implies that there does come a time when a child could be outside of the home. We can take a child to the elders. Let's say that the elders bring a rebuke and that is sufficient to turn this child around. Or maybe there is excommunication. There is a church discipline, barring from the table for a time, eventual excommunication.

That too can be used by the Lord to turn a child around. And again, where there's repentance, there is a drawing back in. And Hosea 11 ends with this fear and trembling. There's a restored honoring of the fatherhood of God, of these children, And he welcomes them back into the home with open arms. But if there isn't this caring for the rest of the family, by dealing definitively with really gross, serious rebellion, then the parenting of the rest of the family comes into jeopardy.

And so we do have to consider what do we do in the really, really tough cases, tough love look like, what are the extremes that we need to avoid? And let's talk about that problem when a parent comes to the place where they're thinking, this child, this rebellion has reached a level that it's poisoning the other children. Jason and I have encountered that kind of situation. It's true. In our pastoral ministry.

We've had parents come to us with their children, I mean brought their children to us, and said, can you please help, can you please talk to my child. By the way, those situations in my experience have turned out really well. Three, four, five, six, seven, 10 years later, those children are doing pretty well. They actually responded to that sort of embarrassing moment when their parents brought them to the pastors to talk to them. But I found during those kind of situations, we were able to bring a whole nother dimension of pastoral care to the children that maybe the parents weren't quite capable of.

And so we were able to supply something extra. And some of it had to do with mercy, some of it had to do with counsel and, you know, warnings. Maybe we would give our warnings a little differently than the parents. So I think it would, in my experience, it provided additional help for the parent and the child. But let's go back to this problem of when the presence of the child seems to be poisoning.

Let's just talk through some of the issues surrounding that. Right, and there are different degrees of sin as well, some of which are much more serious. God, him, you know, I think in our culture, we, we have a lot of churches that say we need to treat all the sins exactly the same way. Well, God doesn't, you know, there's the unpardonable sin that he says, Holy Spirit. There are crimes that were worthy of death.

Well, obviously those were considered more serious than crimes that just had restitution. And then there were sins that were not crimes at all. But I think of Joshua chapter seven and eight, uh, where the accursed thing was in their midst. And it was negatively impacting everybody. There's lots of other sins that were there that did not necessarily negatively impact the whole culture, but any sin that God says has his curse upon it, that has to be taken very, very seriously.

And so we've had situations where some of the older daughters, you know, 18, 19, 20, have engaged in sins that the Bible says were capital offenses, were cursed sins in the midst. And those just could not be tolerated within the home. And they were told, you know, there's either repentance, some forward movement, some signs of seeking to deal with this, or you're going to have to move out and even moving out. You've got to be considering the situation because CPS, if you get reported to CPS, you know, that can endanger the rest of the kids. And so, um, ethicists say you've got to look at what the Bible says about the rules.

So there are general principles or rules that are laid out. What does the Bible say about the consequences? No man builds a tower unless he knows he can finish it. You got to look at the unique person, for example, a person who's mentally retarded and does not have, um, some of the same abilities of an older child, you're going to deal with that child differently than you will a person who has all of his senses. And then you've got the unique situations that each family is finding itself in.

And so all of those have to be taken into consideration. We had one situation of a child who was probably six or seven, and they were almost in despair over this child and his rebellion. They were able to control it outwardly to the point where the family was not being destroyed, but the whole family was gathered in prayer over this child and really grieving over him. This child would blaspheme saying they hate, he hated God. And he did not believe in the gospel and different things like this.

And they continued to pray over him, including spiritual warfare prayer. And at some point, God switched his heart and was so thankful for the disciplines and the love and the and the care that was brought. On the other hand, we know of situations where the child was cast out of the home cast out of the church. Eventually, it was a long process. And years down the road, they came back and said, thank you.

Thank you. Thank you for disciplining. I don't know where I'd be if I had not come into church discipline. That was the thing that turned me around. And so we've got to look at all of the different options that God lays out.

And, you know, in our home, we, we had the ideal, ideal children. And, and we have great, great relationships all through the years, but we live in a sin cursed world and we don't want to judge others. Even God, the father said in Jeremiah 3, I think it's Jeremiah 3, that he perfectly applied the rod and discipline, and yet they would not submit the discipline. So if his parenting does not remove the curse of sin completely, only grace can do that. We shouldn't judge parents who have tried their best, but in the multitude of counselors, there is wisdom.

So like you said earlier, bringing in the elders, there have been times where it's just parenting that needed to change, right? Certain principles and ways in which they've dealt with people. And each child has unique personality. I did have one daughter who I just never was able to connect with. And until I studied what the Bible says about emotions, I, I was lost at how to connect with her.

And I finally found out just by watching a pastor who connected with my daughter and just imitating the things that he was doing. And lo and behold, She opened her heart to me as well, but it can be exasperating to parents when they don't know. And that's why in the multitude of counselors, there can be wisdom. Now of course, we live in an environment where there are psychological terms, there are popular are psychological terms, they're popular psychotherapeutic methodologies and things like that that enter into the discussion. Maybe we could talk about some of those.

You have various categories that are, they introduce to cause blame. My parents are toxic, or this is a codependent relationship. What are some of the traps, the psychological traps that parents can fall into in a time like this? If you have a situation where you feel like, oh, we're about at our wits end here, is backing up to say, where is this coming from, is an important thing to do. A child's sin nature is a sufficient answer to that question.

It doesn't have to be any more than that, but often it is more than that. Often there is a source that is inflaming all the wrong things about the sin nature causing this. So you definitely want to go look at the inputs into this child's life. Who are they really being discipled by? And they don't actually even have to be being discipled by human beings that are a threat, but what is coming in through music and media and things like that can be just making things exponentially worse.

Right. Yeah. Well, sometimes the psychological labels of, you know, I need my feelings respected, I need a safe place, I'm going to set boundaries with my parents. Those types of things are done on trivial levels. And it actually trivializes true abuse, where parents have actually tortured their children or have engaged in crimes with their children, uh, where interposition needs to happen.

So we had one situation of a child who just was resisting saying, well, I'm just setting boundaries. They need to respect me. This is, This is psychological abuse. And in investigating, we just realized that this was a little bit of manipulation and was not true. It would not be defined as abuse.

So what I do in situations like that is God has sovereignly put you here. This is not in danger to your soul or to your body. Ask God now how you can respond to these things. He's testing your character, how you can respond in a way where you grow, how not to be overcome by evil, but to overcome evil with good. And so even bad situations that are sinful, aren't necessarily situations where people need to leave or push, push the center out.

Uh, there are opportunities to grow, including siblings growing through the one rebellious child and saying, okay, God's trusted us with this, a rebellious child. How do we respond in a way where we're not condoning the evil, but we ourselves are growing and not being overcome by evil? You know, one of the, the situations I've seen is that you have a rebellious child, the parents are very afraid about the impact of the other children, but the other children, they see what's going on. And it actually strengthens their faith because they're looking at their sibling and saying, what are you doing? So these kinds of things can be helpful to godly children who are not in the rebellious category.

And so parents just have to weigh, weigh that. Yeah. Maybe, maybe that would be an argument for them to extend their patients. If the, if the family's not being negatively too negatively impacted. Right, right.

I think that there are general broad principles that can be applied in every situation. And if people are aware of those, that there, there is permission in these rare circumstances for putting a child into a, say a home for delinquents or into a friend's home who has expertise in dealing with things like that, or just saying, you're no longer welcome here if they're of age and they're out on their own. There are a number of scriptures that indicate that the ideal, which is staying in the home until they're married, which is what our children did, is not always achievable. And then you look at teleology, you look at the consequences of any given action, uh, you've got to, you've got to analyze what kinds of additional dangers am I going to bring into my home if I make a given decision or don't make a decision? And then looking at the, uh, what the Bible says about each unique individual, female, male, their age.

And then there's the broader situation of your church family, the state that you're in, and the dangers even from CPS. Well, here's another one. You authorize your child to go and say, live with someone else. And you find out that the people that they're living with are flattering those children and, and are actually supporting them in their rebellion. Yeah, no, that's it.

You, you would have to be very, very careful with that. Uh, we, we have one situation where the, you know, she's, uh, 22 right now, but, uh, she had left the home, I think around 19 or 20. And all of her relatives that she went to were doing exactly that and were enabling her in her sin. And it's a pretty serious sin. Well, they eventually get tired of her and they kick her out and then she goes to someone else.

But there does come a time of reckoning in God's providence where these people don't have any of those escape hatches anymore and they have to reckon with the Lord. And so we're praying that that would happen, as has happened in a couple of other cases. Well, let's finally talk about the role of the local church. We touched on it a little bit earlier, but any final thoughts on how local church elders can come alongside and help the children and the parents? Darrell Bock I think one advantage of engaging with respected people outside the family is it pulls this child out of the tunnel vision that says, my parents aren't like any other parents.

My parents are harder on me than any other parents. And almost always, that's simply not true. And when this child has to face the elders and the facts are just established and they're not even arguing the facts, and the elder looks at them and says, hey, if I were your dad, I'd be doing exactly what your dad is doing. What your dad is doing is very appropriate. You just need to respond to it.

He loves you. He's for you. Just them hearing that from somebody outside the bubble, for lack of a better term, lets them know, no, I'm not in unique circumstances at all. Yeah. Yeah.

And there are degrees of involvement that the church can have. Obviously, there is the discipline of the preaching of the word. There's discipline of one-on-one elders coming in and counseling. But then there is the official rebuke where the whole church board, their session elders, whatever you want to call them, brings a rebuke and says you need to repent of this or there's going to be serious consequences. And then the next stage of barring from the table.

There is a power in church discipline where God backs it up and begins to bring, because you tell the person, I don't want you to be sick. Um, you know, even death came in first Corinthians. Some of you are weak, some of you are sick, some of you have even died because you've partaken of the Lord's table unworthily. And then when excommunication is the final stage, uh, even that is an act of grace that's hoping to bring a person to repentance. And we have seen all of those stages being used by the Lord to bring delinquent children to repentance.

And so I think the church is an underutilized resource on this issue. Yeah, that's so true. Well, I think we've tried to give different means, different ways of dealing with this kind of a problem. We know that God is patient, but we also know that God does put out for a person's own good. So you have these two tensions that are always pulling.

But God has given many means to help with a child who's really rebellious. So. Yes. Well, brothers, thank you so much. I know we haven't exhausted this, but I'm thankful for the principles that were brought to bear.

So thank you so much. Okay, and thank you for joining us on the Church and Family Life podcast, and we hope to see you next time. And we hope to see you at our national conference May 4-6 in Ridgecrest, North Carolina. Or if you're single, come to our Singles Conference on May 3-4. See you next time.

Resources on our website, announcements of conferences coming up. Hope you