At the height of the COVID crisis, state governments around the world forbade churches from gathering on the Lord’s Day and restricted pastors and loved ones from visiting the sick in the hospital. The lockdown policies were particularly severe in New Zealand, which compelled a number of committed pastors and Christians there to push back and form the group, Free to Be Church. 

In this podcast, Scott Brown and Jason Dohm interview New Zealand pastors Kris Baines and André Bay, discussing lessons learned during this trying time. The first and foremost lesson is that Christ, not the state, is the exclusive head of the church, and His mandate for local churches to gather must be followed. Churches must worship and fellowship as God directs, not invent pragmatic online alternatives. And, finally, true love for our neighbor comes through obedience to Christ, not by seeking the favor of our community or civil leaders.

Welcome to the Church and Family Life podcast. Hey, today we've got two guys from New Zealand who stood strong against the lockdowns. We want to talk about lessons learned from the lockdowns. And also, hey, what was really helpful during the lockdowns was when to disobey. It was helpful to us here, helpful to them as well.

So here we go. We're going to talk about lessons learned from the lockdowns. Okay guys, hey, let's talk about lessons learned from the lockdown in 2020. Y'all from New Zealand got locked down big time, bigger time than we here, at least in North Carolina and most of the United States. So who are you?

Well, we have Chris Baines, who's been ministering in New Zealand for about 25 years, pastor churches there, and Andre Bay, pastor of Shore Baptist Church in Auckland, New Zealand. And of course, you guys faced lockdown restrictions that were pretty tough, maybe some of the toughest in the world. And so I just wanted to do a look back. It's been some time. You guys stood like these little stick figures in front of this massive tidal wave of the secular state trying to tell the church what to do.

And you created an organization called Free to Be Church. I've got the sweatshirt for it. I wear it proudly. But it was it was amazing to watch what was happening in New Zealand and getting the reports and and listening to the singing in these covert assemblies that were going on during that time. So I just want to talk about lessons learned from the lockdowns.

And I think the first thing that was so clear to most of us is that it really was an issue of authority. Who has authority over the Church of Jesus Christ? Is the state over the Church? Well, our understanding is that Jesus Christ is the exclusive head of the church. And so when the state asks us to do something contrary to the head of the church, we have to follow the head of the church.

So that was the big issue. How did you guys work through that? I guess initially, many of us had been used to the orthodoxy of that doctrine, that Christ is the head of the church. We would sing about that, we'd teach about that. But then we were forced into a situation significantly where that was our orthopraxia, our correct practice.

And of course, there were some Christians who at the time were believing that Christ is the head of the church, is the one telling us through Romans 13 to obey the government. We didn't see it that way. So it really was the primary doctrine to establish and to get our heads around again and to get our minds and our hearts understanding that the church keys essentially do not belong to Caesar, but they belong to Christ. And so when this crossroads comes, regardless of the consequences, we have to yield to Christ as our head. We cannot yield to the government.

But that was a challenge because there were consequences for doing that. Previously there weren't. So, such a vital doctrine for this time, of course. Yeah, I think just the realization that as Christ is the head of the church, he's also the head of everything that he created, and for us to submit to Him is the right thing for us to do. And I remember having to preach in my church about at the heart of the gospel is the fact that we proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord.

And if we say that's the good news, that the kingdom of God has come in the Lord Jesus Christ and he's now Lord, he's now exalted, sitting at the right hand of the Father, that reality surely must be evident in the church. And we have a message to proclaim, in other words, that this is the Gospel. The Gospel is that sinners are saved, we're brought into the kingdom of God, and He is now the Lord overall, but in particular in the church as we now bring this message to the people around us. So I think the lordship of Christ was very important in helping our church, at least to understand that He's the one to obey first and foremost. And also, it brought an expectation then to expect the governments to also obey Christ.

I actually listened to one of your podcasts where someone mentioned that, that Jesus is not only... There's not a separation of church and state only, but there's no separation between Christ and the state. I think that's important for us as the church to acknowledge. You know, you two and several other churches were vociferous about the authority of Jesus Christ over his church to the government and you you know we're in you're doing that in public places you register a lawsuit against the government which is still pending could you just walk us through how all that happened about your public exposure of the problem and then how it's played out? I guess It was born initially with pastors talking in a sort of larger group when things started to happen.

And then within that group you realized there were men who were more like-minded along the lines of, we realized we need to stay open and we need to submit to the headship of Christ. And from that group, there was a smaller group of men. And eventually, there were sort of eight of us who talked. And Andre had actually heard from overseas a group Christian concern that had been successful with a lawsuit in Scotland. So we wondered, can we pursue the legal means?

Another reason for that was there were Christians who were struggling with civil disobedience. And so we wanted to lay a path where we had pursued the legal means. So they could say, we've tried the legal means and they haven't avowed anything, so we must now civilly disobey. So we formed the organization, but then also we began to do webinars and publicly seek support from Christians because there were many Christians who really wanted help in thinking biblically through these issues of like pragmatism, how do I think biblically about autonomy of my body, and of course the issues with the church. And we had to walk a fine line because in all of that we still wanted to honor the elders of churches.

We didn't want to come in and usurp that and encourage people to respectfully go to their leaders, but at the same time, present the headship of Christ. I mean, it covers all of these things. And if you get that right, everything flows underneath it. But the case went to judicial review, I guess you could say about that, Andre, what happened initially. Yeah, so the first time it came up in court, we lost.

By the way, what did the lawsuit state? How did you frame it? Well, there are several things that had to be in the lawsuit. So New Zealand has a Bill of Rights, and Article 14 and 15 are particularly rights towards religious freedom. So that would be the core of our case, is to say that we have the freedom to assemble and the freedom to exercise our faith.

And that obviously includes all faiths, but for us in particular, those articles should have protected us. Now the government can look at those articles and say, well, there is an emergency, and therefore we do not have to comply to our own bill of rights. So rights are only rights as it is being defined by those who have the power. So that was the heart of it really. But in order for our legal team to actually bring the case, we also had to show how the government has acted, how quickly they changed some of the levels of lockdown, for example, how many people could meet the vaccine rollouts, the efficacy of the vaccines.

So that kind of clouded some of the things, but it was necessary I think in a legal sense to bring that. But for us we would be happy if at least the parts of the case that speak about our religious freedom, if those articles could be held up, that would actually send precedent for future cases. So right now we're just waiting. We did appeal the previous result and we're now just waiting for that to be settled in court with the judges. Just to be clear on that as well, it wasn't a political argument.

It was purely the argument was from the basis of the headship of Christ that we as Christians is a distinct category And as somebody once said, it's not that we were becoming more political, but the government decided to become more religious. So we had to deal with that. We had to stand up and be a voice. And we didn't have the expectation of winning. The most important thing was being a voice, making a stand.

And so if we win the appeal, great, but if not, it doesn't change anything in the sense that we still proclaim the headship of Christ and we've tried to do what we can legally. You know, just this morning I was reading in my morning devotions in Ephesians 3, 10, that the manifold wisdom of God might be made known through the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places according to the eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus. This is the church's presence in the world. We demonstrate the wisdom of God before the earthly powers and principalities and the heavenly powers and principalities, and that means that we live differently. Yeah, and the church's witness in this world is to show submission to our Lord in all things.

I think that was the challenge is because now we have expectations from governments, expectations from scientists, expectations from the media, expectations from our neighbors that is contrary to that which God expects of us. Well, who are we going to submit to? And the Christian's answer to this and witness to the world as we submit to our Lord Jesus Christ. That was a huge issue because so many people were saying, you know, we're gonna obey the government because we wanna be a good witness to the community. And this whole, you know, specter of being a good witness was kind of shrouded a lot of the thinking of pastors.

And part of it, we don't want to be perceived of as a rebellious, dockey-like people. But how do you draw the line, or how did you try to draw that line between being a good witness in the community as a duty? I think reminding people that, because we heard the phrase love your neighbor a lot, right? So if you love your neighbor, you'll obey the government because no one wants anyone to get sick or die. But we would just try and encourage people what love your neighbor really means.

And that doesn't mean that your neighbor necessarily feels that you love them or the community does. And so we wanna be a good witness in the community, and most of the time the church should be a blessing in the community, Christian families, the influence the church has. But when you come against that clash with truth, we must go the way of truth, not the way of seeking the favor of the community. But that was hard for people because there's family involved, there's relationships involved. And so people are struggling because they're thinking, we're now being told that you're the ones making it worse for everyone else.

But there was a passage actually in Romans 13, further down from the passage we always look at at these times, where from verse 8, it says, "'O know and anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not covet. If there's any other commandment, they're all summed up in this saying, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to a neighbor. True love is obedience to Christ, and we had it the other way around.

True love is do what the community wants. So I think it was just encouraging to be able to have the confidence that the community is not your gauge as to whether you're walking in obedience to Christ. Your faithfulness to Christ comes first, not your witness in the community. But manner is everything though, right? How you did it, yeah.

Yeah, like guys like James Coates, Tim Stevens, such examples, but there were others where maybe it wasn't such a good example, kicking and screaming, and manna should show that we're doing it at least in a Christlike way, even when we're disobeying, essentially. Yeah. And I think loving your neighbor was a big deal in New Zealand, because like Chris said, it was constantly in the news. Be kind, love your neighbor, be kind, love your neighbor, and then suddenly, don't talk to your neighbor because you can spread COVID. So suddenly, you had to find a way, secularly speaking, to love your neighbor without having contact with your neighbor, where the Christian message is, no, you love your neighbor by being involved in their lives, and especially again for the church.

How do we love our brothers and sisters? It is by meeting together. It is by participating in the Lord's Supper. It is the means of grace that we experience together. That's how we love in the church.

And then how do we love our unsaved neighbors? Well, we love them by, oh, I hear my neighbor is sick. Maybe I can go and deliver a food package to them or see if I can help with practical things. Well, we weren't allowed to do that. Of course, we still did because we love the Lord and we truly love our neighbors in the way in which God expects us to.

Yeah. Yeah. Loving your neighbor was defined as you have to stay six feet away, wear a mask. It was crazy. It was insulting.

But I was preaching sermons, greet one another with a holy kiss. Christians, Christians... Did you blow that kiss like six weeks? I did. You blew the kiss, yeah.

Of course, if somebody's really sick, I don't think you greet one another with a holy kiss. But yeah, Christian relationships look different than standing, you know, dancing around each other six feet away with a mask on. Well, we're still responsible. I mean, some people thought, acted like Christians were going to run in and, you know, spread germs as fast as they could to everyone. But Christians for many years have gathered and sick people have stayed at home, but it's not been everybody who's well-stayed at home, and that was the difference.

But also just ministering to those in need, people who are dying in hospital and you're not allowed to go and see them, especially for pastors who... We treasure those moments to spend with people the last hours of their lives because you can pray for them, you can pray for their families. Well, that was all taken away. That's not loving, not allowing people to see their dying family members. That's not loving.

So I think we had a duty to actually show true Christian love for the world to see. That was so harmful. So many people lost their relatives in the hospital and never got to see them. This was so profane. This was not love at all.

You know, and there were so many lies as well that were revealed fairly early. The efficacy of lockdowns, that was a lie. The efficacy of masks, that was a lie. And, you know, I would say the efficacy of the vaccines was a lie. 100% effective.

And now I think there's a little bit different narrative, you know, they weren't effective at all. So, you know, there were there were so many misrepresentations that we had to try to deal with. And how does love figure into that? Let's talk about the forces of pragmatism in this whole mix. Pragmatism I think had a lot to do with the reasons people shut their churches shut down the reasons churches would live stream, you know for weeks for months on end How did how did you see that how did you know the churches really embrace a pragmatic approach to the church?

I think what happened was suddenly people looked at the means of grace as certain components that could be carried out in an alternative way. And that was a mistake by there because they didn't value the context in which we receive the means of grace. So, you know, watching a sermon online, a fellowship in online, praying online, we can tick those boxes and it's the same thing, but it isn't. I was thinking it's almost like if you were wearing an astronaut suit and you're sitting in a rocket and you're eating astronaut rations, you can't say you've been to the moon, because it's a whole different thing. You know, you've actually got to be on the moon to go to the moon.

And so here we are with these components of the means of grace, but it's not the ecclesia. And when we really looked to what that means, you know, the word translated as church called out ones, called out from where we're called out from their homes, not called into their homes. But I think that pragmatism was also driven by the fact that there were consequences to doing things God's way, sadly. So this is going to be risky and controversial to do what we normally do. So therefore, let's think of a different way to do it.

I think that drove the pragmatism, but whenever you do that, you're on a slippery slope rather than saying, what does God require in this situation? Yeah, pragmatism is born out of lack of faith in the church, that is, because God has set for us His counsel. We know exactly what to do. We know how to do it. And if we then decide, well, we can do better or we can change things because our circumstances demand it, that's pragmatism.

And pragmatism, if we practice it, it always leads to either disobedience or compromise. I was thinking about this, the story of Samuel and Saul. Samuel is late to bring the sacrifice. Saul is impatient. He knows the law.

He's not supposed to do it, but the Philistines are always at the border, ready for war, and then Gilgal, he decides, I'm going to make the sacrifice. And Samuel comes and he rebukes him because his ways was not the ways of the Lord. And that's what pragmatism does. We see a situation that we think we can either do it better, or we think, well, we need to adapt it because society demands it, or we just deny the fact that Christ is Lord and we need to submit to him. So it always ends up in us doing something that is either contrary to God's Word or it leads to us compromising on things.

Pragmatism is a very, very dangerous thing in the church. I know, you know, church and family life is built on the premise that the sufficiency of God's Word is that that's the foundation from which we do all things. Well, we need to start believing that in our churches. The Word of God is sufficient for all things, And we need to just learn how to trust that and practically live that out. And that's against the pragmatist ideology.

I can make it work. I can do it better. What are some of the lessons learned? What do you walk away from this with? Well, first of all, as a pastor serving with other elders, personally, I've learned how important it is to have good elders alongside you, godly men who love the Word and who could lead both in truth and in love as we are asked to do in Ephesians.

And I've had that in my eldership. We didn't always agree on every aspect or maybe how we should do things, but there was a true unity on the basis of this is God's word. And that helped us because it mitigated maybe some of my impatience on one hand. So that is good. I think that's one lesson that I've learned is to trust the men that God gave you in your eldership.

Secondly is also how we as pastors shepherd our people. Not everyone in a church our size will be completely on board with all the decisions you make. So you need to very carefully think, because you are appointed as the shepherd of their souls. You need to make sure that you guide them and lead them very, very carefully and gently, not pushing people to one side of the other, honoring the conscience of various people, especially when it came to the vaccine. Some was adamant it had to be done, others refused to be doing it.

So how do you get those people to gather together on a Sunday where the government says they should be separated? So I think I've learned a lot in how to shepherd the flock in such a way. I think the final thing is, in the 1970s, the battle was for the inerrancy of scripture and the infallibility of scripture. I think we moved into an era where we need to fight for the supremacy of Scripture, that the Word of God is supreme in its authority over our lives, and we in the church need to stand for that, and that is going to cost us a lot. And historically that's the case.

If Christians hold the Word of God as the ultimate authority, you have set yourself up for persecution. So I think, Yeah, those are some of the things that I think I've learned and very grateful for. I think for me some of the most significant lessons revolved around the value of the corporate gathering. And in many ways COVID was in a good way, but a sad way, was diagnostic. And it was a shock to realize how much of a low view so many Christians had of the assembly when it was convenient, when it was revolving around what you benefited from personally, that's one thing, but when it was based on conviction and commitment to the Scriptures.

And so I realized that I couldn't change people's minds. When the church hits this opposition, and there was a point in our church where I realized, it's not me convincing people. And so I decided for a period of four weeks to just teach on the blessing and the beauty of the gathered church, and just prayed and prayed and asked the Holy Spirit to change people's hearts. And I think that was the pivotal time in that church where you saw people strengthened because the Word of God reminded them how essential it is to gather. And it's so sad to see such a low view, but then those times of worship, I miss because people were coming into the assembly with risk and they came by faith, they came in submission to the Lordship of Christ.

And I learned that worship that costs something means something, and there was something tangible about the commitment. I used to say, and I said to you at the time, that people sang like they wanted to get caught. But that understanding of the gathered body And look into the future, we mustn't let that go because it all comes down to that. We hold tightly to the importance of gathering physically in person on the Lord's Day. Yeah, that's maybe one of the greatest blessings, I think, that the church is far more equipped to say, thus saith the Lord.

Amen. And to really embrace the authority of Jesus Christ over his church. The church is more ready now than it was. We weren't ready at all here in America, but I do believe the next round will be experienced differently by churches and by pastors who ended up having to just recognize that Jesus Christ is the head of the church. That's right.

And saying that, we need to recognize that the enemy is subtle, and discernment is necessary for us as well. We will be ready, or far better prepared, But the attacks are always veiled with all kinds of little nuances that we need to recognize. Like Chris just mentioned now, okay, conversion therapy is the next one, but what's next? It could even be something as simple as climate change could be. We don't want too many people to be in one place.

Whatever it is, we need to be very, very careful and discerning to see the difference between... I think, was it Spurgeon That said, discernment is not knowing the difference between good and evil, but knowing the difference between almost good and almost evil. I think it was him. I might be wrong quoting. Well, we all quote Spurgeon anyway, so I couldn't be wrong.

But I think that's important is to recognize the dangers that we as churches face. Well, brothers, it was great to have the courageous from New Zealand to be with us. Thank you so much for your work there and the inspiration that you provided, at least me and a lot of us here in the United States. Well, thank you for joining us on the Church and Family Life podcast. Hope you can join us next time.

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