The Scripture’s witness is clear—we’re to joyfully bring our children into the public worship of God. Yet this blessed opportunity is not without challenge, especially for the young who are prone to distraction. So how should parents prepare their little ones for the meeting of the church? 

In this podcast, Scott Brown and Jason Dohm, joined by their wives Deborah and Janet, share practical tips on how to go about this. Drawing from personal experience, they counsel dads to take the lead in training their kids to be attentive through family devotions in the home, and for moms to have clothes and other necessities laid out ahead of time to smooth the way for Sunday worship. Other advice they give: Don’t let your children resort to “playtime” when you take them out for correction or other needs, but seek to grow their affections for the blessings of the worship service.  

Keeping your children with you in church. We're here to inspire you, encourage you, and we have two experts, Deborah Brown and Janet Dome. Hope you enjoy the time. Hey, so let's talk about having little kids in church, you know. What could go wrong?

What could go wrong? We have some veterans here. Janet Dohm is with us. Check it out. How nice.

This is great. And of course my wife Deborah. And you know we've been banging around in this space for a long time. We really have. And like how old were your kids when we started?

They were super teeny. Probably Megan was probably three or five or something like that. Four and two. Four and two, okay. Yeah, and then they all, the rest of them just got born into it, right?

And Our kids are little too. But so, hey, we wanna be an encouragement to the young family that's trying to juggle their kids in church, trying to figure out how to do this the best way. And we've been doing this for about 22 years. So I'm really thankful. And I think I'm really grateful for you guys too.

What a blessing. So many blessings that flowed from it. But anyway, we wanna talk about a bunch of different issues. Here's the deal. God has charged us to bring worshipers of God into the world.

And that's really what the whole matter is, is to bring children into the worship of God where the singing is sweet, you know, where the prayers are said, where the preaching, you know, is biblical. But we'll be, I think what we're here to talk about problems too. So what are some of the problems of having little kids in church? Hey I think we'll start here. We've had our fair share.

Have you not had your fair share? More than that. Nobody gets a free pass. Nobody has a multi-year existence without problems. Everybody who's tried it has hard Sundays and difficult Sundays.

And if you'll stick with it, you'll have less of them and you'll have more better Sundays. So hey, the big deal, we don't think that children should be banished from the ordinary means of grace. And we've written a lot about it. I mean, we've written theological foundations on it. Here's a book called The Family at Church.

How do you have your family at church? Very detailed explanations. Biblical arguments in a weed in the church. I mean, we think it's the right thing. But there are problems.

You know, I was talking to Monica, I was talking to David's wife, and she was telling me that her mom anticipated the problems and would actually map out who's going to sit by who. Of course. You know, so that, you know, the problematic children, you know, would be next to the mature children and that type of thing. But there are lots of practical things that you can do. Now that's a pretty organized mom to set out a seating chart before church, but that's pretty smart.

That's a family of 12. That's a family of 12, yeah. Well can I jump in? Yeah. I was talking to my daughter who has five little ones, seven and under about this.

And what I think I would like to say is there's long-term prep and there's short-term prep. So long-term prep I'm picturing where you're training your kids well in the home, not Saturday night or Sunday morning, but all of life. If the only time they're supposed to sit still and be quiet is Sunday morning, that's just not going to work. They have to have some other times during the week that during your family Bible time or whatever it is for you They have to have times where you're working on Obedience and that they know how to sit still and be quiet for a decent period of time So that's a long term prep and then there's a short term prep of getting ready Saturday night so that Sunday morning you don't scream at your children all morning and then expect everybody to be happy at 10 o'clock or whatever time your service starts. It just doesn't work like that.

Can I just say find the shoes Saturday night? No one can find their shoes on Sunday morning for some mystical reason. Lay all the clothes out, get all the Bible stuff ready to go. If there's food prep, do what you can that night. You do it all, not Sunday morning, because there's always a poopy diaper.

There's always a kid that wants to have something that's a, you know, anyway. There's always a problem on Sunday mornings. You do everything that you can think of before that. And then Sunday morning you can actually enjoy the morning a little bit and just get to church, plan to be there early so that you have wiggle room built in. They're just very practical things that makes the Sabbath more Sabbath-like even for a mom with lots of young kids.

Hey some of the biggest families in our church are there like 15 minutes early sitting there with their families. Deborah, Didn't one of our daughters have their boys sleep in their Sunday clothes so that when they got up, was that us? That was my mom. That was your mom. All my brothers would be put to bed in their Sunday clothes.

Make Sunday morning a lot easier. It was, she had a lot of little kids. Well, I was gonna talk about what Janet said. Like first out of the gate is that long-term prep. It's about training their appetites.

If you're got a high energy entertainment culture in your home, and you're watching, you know, fast paced, exciting movies. No offense to anything. I'm just like, Jason. Our preaching's not gonna measure up to that. It's not gonna measure up.

Grand Mary was a, you know, she was a third grade teacher. She said when Sesame Street came out, it was a nightmare for them. Because everything was bright colors, it's super fun, The scene was changing every few minutes. And then there's her at the front of the classroom. Who is delightful.

She is a very delightful, but she's not Big Bird. And so she said it was hard on all of them. That's amazing. Yeah, it's because you know they've gotten used to watching this stuff and always having to have some input and so like when we and our kids are growing up because grandma had told me that story They got to watch Mr. Rogers.

Yeah. Who is so slow. And I used to think, I can't believe my kids are watching this. Maybe the preaching can keep up with Mr. Rogers.

And so like that's a huge, huge issue. If you are training your children to need all that stimulation, a pastor is gonna fail. So what do you do when kids are, well let's talk about kids making noise and stuff like that. I'll just start off and say, you know, over the years, I'm not very aware of the surface noise that goes on unless there's a child that's screaming. Right.

Then That discombobulates me just slightly. But I know it's going to end at some point. Let's talk about just trying to deal with children. Little ones are crying. What's the best way to deal with that?

That's reality. I mean, babies cry. They're supposed to cry, right? Yeah. So you take them out for a little while.

You can't let them be disruptive. I remember standing in the back of church and just whichever the baby was, you know, just back with the stroller or back with just the little one. Just that that was kind of part of the deal, you know. Young moms, it's hard because you hate to miss anything. I have a dear friend with ten children who's a really great mom, and she says, you know, I don't get a...I'd never hear a whole sermon because I'm taking somebody out or God takes away the bathroom, and anyway she said, but God always gives me what I need from that sermon.

I may just get one little tidbit, but I trust God to give me what I need. Instead of being bitter about what you miss, be happy about what you get. So I think that can help young moms. And of course, I'll let you guys talk about the dads, but there's two parents, so, and there's a whole church. So, you know, I had a mom tell me just recently that she found it so helpful that her husband would take the role of taking a child out, just to be a blessing to her.

And I thought that was really, so in a marriage, there needs to be agreement about how that's gonna happen. And maybe it just shouldn't be the mother who takes that child out. You have two parents, right? And when I go out into the hallway after serving the Lord's Supper, a lot of times there'll be, we have so many little kids in our church, it's not funny. We have so many babies.

And so I've got parents in the hallway they can still hear the sermon and you know even take the Lord's Supper but a lot of times the dads are out there and I'm really I'm really thankful to see that. So you know I think in a marriage there had there should be you know conversation about how that should be and also flexibility with one another. One caution I would add is be really careful about letting your older kids take out the babies because they really need to be in church. It's a parent's job to train their children, which is that's what that time should be for, right? You take your children out and it's a training time.

I love baby. Yeah. Yeah, it's not the responsibility of the older child to do this. Yeah, a 16 year old. It's not her responsibility.

And not that they can never do it. Just being really careful about how much you do that. Cause that's what you want your children to love that. Debra, let me develop something that you just said. It's a training time.

So pro tip, if your child's being disruptive and you take them out and out becomes a playtime, you'll never be in again. Right. Kids are smart. Kids know I'm a little disruptive. I go out, I get to play, the party is over.

You know? So, we're not talking about babies here, but when you're not talking about babies and they're disruptive to the point that you have to take them out, it needs to be very unpleasant for them. And then they need to come right back in as soon as you can get them back in so that they understand this is not a ticket out of the worship service. Yeah, that's really good. Most young parents feel bad about disrupting the pastor or disrupting, especially during the sermon.

It's just more obvious when your kid makes a ruckus or they scream all the way out because they're getting ready to meet some discipline. So most young parents feel bad. Well, the pastor doesn't hear it normally, honestly. We could tell stories about these guys and they don't hear things that happen right in front of their noses very often and and the other thing is you're you are training like you're not doing it like a one-time kind of thing and you're never gonna do it again most kids kind of go through a training we call it boot camp usually They go through a boot camp and once you get them trained, they really do respond and they're able to sit and be pleasant, be quiet, and take the pressure off of you as a mom or dad. But to get to that point, you have to pay the dues.

You have to do the discipline. Every child is different. Not everybody needs that boot camp. Some can just go to church all their lives and never make a ruckus. And then there's the 98% that needs some boot camp.

Hey, this has become my favorite phrase, especially when talking to dads. You get what you insist on. You don't insist on it, you don't get it. But if you do insist on it, you do get it. And demand it, insist on it, enforce it, and then you'll have to, then you'll not need to demand it and insist on it because it's become established.

But until you get it established in your home, you'll only get what you insist on. Oh, okay, let's talk about, so I wanna talk about something that I want parents to insist on. Let's talk about going to the bathroom. OK, can we talk about going to the bathroom during the worship of God? OK, I'm against it.

Well, yeah, Me too. You're not potty training either. But you can limit it by how much they drink and you can limit the trips for sure. I just know that I've watched kids sit in front of a two-hour movie and never move and never have to go to the bathroom. So never say never.

There might be an odd occasion where one of your kids needs to go to the bathroom, but the bathroom is actually there before the service. You Make use of it before the service. You're smart to run your kids through the bathroom 10 minutes before. And then they really can make it. If they don't visit the coffee room before the service.

Okay, so we talked about not defaulting to your older children and take care of the younger children. I think that's a good idea. But there are ways that the church can help and participate. Like right now, we have grandchildren in our church, a bunch of really little ones, and usually a couple of them will come and sit with us. Oh, by the way, they are so sweet.

I'm pretty sure, I've been told, they're sweeter with us than they are in their own line of work. But there are ways that families can help one another. And we've seen how that works. Or not necessarily just family, but an older couple that doesn't have any little kids they're training. Now we have some of that.

They take the three-year-old. Hey, in our early years when Janet and I were both participating in leading music at church. And so, both of us were up front. Deborah, for years, had Laura. I know, I did.

And a sweet bond exists to this day. How old's Laura now, 22? Yeah, Laura's 22 now and there's there's still a sweet bond from the early years of Deborah having Laura in church. Okay, I gotta tell a story. So a few years ago, I think she was like 13, maybe or 14, and I came to your house, I'll never forget this, I get out of my car and Laura's coming over there.

I said, hey, how you doing? And for some reason, I don't know why, I said, hey, What's the first thing that comes to your mind when you think about those times when your Aunt Deborah held you in worship? And immediately she said, oh, what I remember is that If the pastor said something that she loved, she'd go, mmm, amen, or if there was a prayer being said, she would go, mmm, amen. And then she said, I think she said, and she said, I think about that. She might have said, I think I do that myself.

But that was a very sweet time in those early years. So what can a child get out of church more than you think? Our youngest child was held by a lady in the church for so consistently that a man who had come into the church a year in thought that she belonged to that family and not ours. That's how it is. You don't have to do it all yourself.

This is one way where we can be a blessing to each other. And we've definitely experienced that in our house. Well, it also brings a bond between your kids and the other adults in your church. That's massive. It becomes their church then not just my mom's friends.

It's their friends. And for the older teenagers that are able to help, they you know are especially I think our older kids need to see that they're part of the body, you know, that everybody's got a role to play, and that, you know, a young mom really can't finish a conversation unless somebody gives her help. Somebody helps her with the ones that are wiggling. And I'm thinking after church, when you're trying to have a nice lunch or you're just trying to finish a sentence with someone, you just like to finish a sentence. Well, some of these young people that are willing to jump in and help, it's beneficial to them because they end up getting to know this mom and get to learn stuff from that mom.

And then it's so beneficial to the young mom. So I feel like, you know, the whole thing about young, young children in church is it's a whole church effort. If you don't think you're part of the solution, then you're not looking very hard. I think we should all be working to be part of the solution to help our young families. The young family is gonna help the older people in ways.

So if you have older people in your congregation, they love being around children and some don't have any contact with them. So there's so much to be gained both ways. I'm glad you said that. I had this moment in church last Sunday, and I looked around, and over here, there's a young girl who had one of my granddaughters. And then over here was a young man in his mid-20s, and he had one of the granddaughters of one of our deacons.

And I'm looking around and you know our young people they love to hold babies right, but it's a blessing, but they have to fight for it, but it's a blessing to the mother particularly to have that kind of help and that kind of sensitivity going on in the church. That's what it means to be in a generational community. And train our older kids not just to hold the baby that's fun to hold, take care of the two-year-old that's not fun to trace and be responsible so that mother knows they can actually trust you. You know, I remember being a young mom and somebody asked if they could help and I'm thinking, no, you'll let my child jump off a cliff. You know, then another kid asked if they can help and you're like, yes, you'll keep my child alive until I get back to you.

You know, Just having some things in place about how that works. But our young people need to serve not just when it's fun and convenient, but just like we're all supposed to serve, we're supposed to lay our lives down in a way that you're sacrificing something. As a young person, you're not getting to go visit with your young person friend, maybe, because you're chasing a two-year-old around the church. So that's all such good lessons for being a part of the body. You know, one of the things that happens in every family or grade church, And it does happen to one degree or another, and sometimes it gets worse and it gets a little better, but the adults want to talk to the adults and the kids want to talk to the kids.

So you're always having to break that up. You're always having to encourage the parents to actually get down on their knees and talk to some little kids and engage with some of the younger people. This is a family integrated church. We wanna break up the generational cultures. But that's also a way, correct me if Janet, you said tracing that two year old, I thought it was just contact tracing here.

You've got to have a tracer on that kid. It'd be good. An Apple AirTag would be fantastic. An Apple AirTag would be fantastic. But, but, But a church, but like, hey, like the older guy, you know, the young men and the older men in the church can get right down there and talk to that little kid and engage them and not just talk to their peer level.

And That's a really important thing. Hey, I wanna bring up something that Deborah did, worked at, talks about. In fact, you gave a message to a bunch of ladies one time about helping your kids have an affection, a dear affection for the church as sort of a baseline of everything that you do. And you know, the church shouldn't be the place where, this is where I get spanked every time. You know, I mean, there should be a sense of, you know, leading that child into the very best things.

Let's just talk about that. Growing your children's affections for the beauty of local church life. Yeah, well, I mean, it starts at home once again. It's how you talk about the church. It's the people you pray for.

You have to be so careful. It's so easy to Be in your safe zone and then you see things you shouldn't that don't help a child's affections to grow They're not adults. They can't handle some of those some of that knowledge And so I want I don't want to poison the well in any way. I want them to love my friends. We used to sing, I was glad when they said unto me, let us go into the house of the Lord when we got in the car to come to church.

If your kids don't love The church, you've lost. It's a really, wow, if they don't love the church, they're not gonna stay. It has to be valuable, that's gonna happen in the home. That's where it's gotta happen. I think Janet said this early on, but the lead up to the time at church matters a lot.

The less chaotic it is, the more you come in on even keel, not, you know, with your hair frazzled, figuratively speaking. And so the things that you can do proactively to make that lead-up time not chaotic pay pay big dividends. Yeah. Oh yeah. I kept all the shoes in the van.

I think they were, I always had them. If we needed them everywhere we went. Never had to look for shoes. Yeah, that's a big one. And it probably makes you go to church as a hypocrite too.

Like you got it all together? Yeah, you're not, you know, you cram your kids in the car, get buckled up, you know, everybody is, you know, you're yelling at everybody, get in the car, and then you get to church and... Smile everybody! That's the one thing, you know, we had church in the barn for a long time. Right.

And the biggest question I got was from other pastors wives that said, who did the same thing, who said, do you like it? I said, I love it. He said, okay, because we hate it. And then it was always the same. They were hounding the kids all day Saturday, get it ready, get it ready, get it ready.

Oh. Yeah. And the kids hated it. Yeah. It's like, yeah, don't do that.

Yeah, make it a joy. Hey, I wrote a book about it, How Parents Are Tour Guides for Everlasting Joy. I really wrote this book to help families squeeze the greatest joys out of local church life, to love the church, to engage in every part of the singing, the praying, the preaching, the fellowship, the evangelism, all the stuff that the church does. And it just, you know, build your life around a local church. And make it the center of your whole social and intellectual focus.

It's the Church of Jesus Christ. It's the only eternal institution in the world. So, hey, I want to thank you guys for being such great moms and such inspiring role models, you know, for other younger moms in the church. I really praise the Lord for you. So thanks for joining us.

I know you just love to be on podcasts. Hey, can I deliver a couple of parting words? Sure. Yeah. One to dads.

Dads, during the week when you gather your family to worship in your home, which you should be doing most nights of the week. You're training for Sunday. Make ready for Sunday. It's a mini Sunday, So it shouldn't be as long as Sunday. No way.

Be gentle on your family in that way. But it's the time where you can be training your children to sit mostly still and be mostly quiet. And I think dads ought to actually take the lead role with their row in church. Don't leave it to mom. She has the lead role all week because you're not there.

Well, you are there in church. Take as much weight off of mom as you can. Consider it your mission to do the heavy lifting, meaning when somebody has to go out and be dealt with, you be the one to do it. You're trying to keep the peace and trying to keep people focused on the service, not just like, I'm listening to preaching and you take care of the kids. That's not right.

So dads have to rid themselves of that mentality. And then for pastors, help cultivate an environment in your church that doesn't have to be perfectly pristine. We're coming from churches where pretty much the worship experience was pristine. Very little disruption, very little sound. You can have a...

Your children be mostly still and mostly quiet, but if you've got that, you've probably got as good as you're going to get. And honestly, you can worship really well in that environment. Wean people off of this need for perfect, pristine worship experiences. But also, hey, help your parents to know you can't let your kids just be disruptive. Your kids have to learn to be conscious of the people around them and considerate of the people around them.

So it's sort of a word to everybody. Golden Rule comes in play again. Yeah. I feel like it's most helpful in a church environment is treating others the way you'd like to be treated and kids can learn that really young. Psychiatrists don't think they can, but they can learn to be kind at a very young age with your help.

Yeah, amen. Hey, thanks. Thanks for coming on. Really appreciate it. We're super duper thankful for you guys.

Okay, so that's it. Thank you for joining us on the Church and Family Life podcast and we hope you can join us next time. Churchandfamilylife.com