How do you discern whether a child is a Christian based on his profession of faith to you or to a pastor during a baptism interview? Are they coming forward for baptism to please their parents and to follow what they’ve seen others do—or is their genuine contrition for sin and true belief?  

In this podcast, Scott Brown and Jason Dohm, joined by special guest Trent Moody, tackle these thorny questions. They maintain that being born again is more than mental assent to certain Gospel truths; it comes to a heart who knows the weight of sin, a heart that beats with fervent faith that the Savior has washed him clean from his corruption. And it comes with a cost: The child’s allegiance must be to Christ first, even above their own family. Their deepest affection must be to the things of God and His Word. 

Welcome to the Church and Family Life podcast. Today I've got Trent Moody, my fellow pastor, and Jason Dome with us. We're going to talk about a hot topic, and that is, how do you discern whether a child is a Christian when they come for a baptism interview? How do you have an interview? How do you discern levels of maturity and things like that?

So we're going to talk about that. I hope you enjoy it. Well, we've had a lot of discussions about baptism with young people, children, old people, and it can be quite a ride, can't it? Sometimes it's difficult to really discern someone's spiritual condition, especially if they're young, but not just only if they're really young. You know, if they are young, you're dealing with intellectual immaturity, emotional immaturity, lack of experience.

You're dealing, you know, sometimes in the backdrop, you're dealing with sort of a controllability factor. You know, children are doing what they just want to please their parents. Or they just saw their friend get baptized, you know, last month, and now they want to do it too. So there's all this stuff kind of swirling around the room that you're triangulating, you know, in your own brain. And of course, you know, in our churches, if you're going to get baptized, you've got to give a testimony to the church.

You've got to have the guts or whatever you want to call it to stand up in front of everybody. So that requires some level of maturity to do that. So anyway, we just want to talk around some of the issues, the problems, the solutions of having, you know, baptism interviews, particularly with young people. Yeah, so it's no stranger to us to have a parent come to us or even a child come to us to express an interest in baptism. In time past, that would trigger a baptism interview.

Several years ago, we actually made a change because we felt like, to the extent that we have responsible parents and to the extent that we've been responsible, we've been teaching to the test, parents every day, us every Sunday, what would I mean teaching to the test? We've been drilling the answers to the baptism interview and if they've been paying any sort of attention for the last couple of years as we teach to the test every day, every Sunday, they're going to be able to pass the baptism interview. What we want to know isn't can they pass the test that we've been teaching to. What we want to know is are they born again? And is there a distinction between being born again and having an intellectual assent to some gospel propositions?

If you think those are the same thing, then I don't know that we have help to offer you. But we want to argue those are not the same thing. Having an intellectual ascent to gospel propositions is a very different thing from actually being born again. And what you're trying to discern when somebody's interested in being baptized is which one are we dealing with here. So we've been asking parents that we have a totally separate, disconnected from a baptism interview time where we get to talk with this child who's interested in being baptized, and where we as elders, my co-elder and I, get to talk to them.

And we just preface the meeting this way. We're going to do all the talking today, so no pressure on you. Baptism interview, then the pressure will be on you. We'll be asking questions and you'll be doing the talking, but that's not what today is. And we want to spend that time in this totally different, separate meeting to talk to them about what we believe baptism is and some of the things that a responsible church leader ought to be concerned about when someone who's very young desires to be baptized.

And I'll normally start in Acts chapter 8, which is the baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch, who Philip explains the gospel out of Isaiah 53. This is a wonderful passage. And the Ethiopian eunuch, they come to water. He says, here's water, why can't it be baptized? And here's what Philip says, if you believe with all your heart, you may.

So that's language that ought to tip us off right away. You don't want to be baptized just because this seems to make sense. All right, hey, I've been hearing what my parents said, I've been hearing what you say at church, that seems to make sense. Will you baptize me? Philip actually wanted to raise a standard where he says, you can be baptized if you believe with all your heart.

I think intuitively you get this sense, oh, that's different than just, all right, seems to make sense to me. Now how do you diagnose that, especially with a child? How do you get to the bottom of Do you believe with all your heart or is this sort of like like Santa? You know Santa if you if you're in a home that does Santa You know Up until a certain point you believe in Santa because your parents, it's the game we're playing at home, and there are certain advantages to playing the game. We believe in Santa, I get gifts with Santa, so I'm not sure about Santa, but on the other hand, I like keep the gifts flowing, right?

So are we talking about Santa here, or are we talking about I want to follow a Savior and Lord for the rest of my life. You know, one of the things about that just came to my mind is our cultural, at least in America, our understanding of believe is really a shallow understanding. Preach. There's such a weightier issue behind and in that word, believe. Throwing all of your weight upon something, resting totally upon it.

Trust. I like to use the word trusting in along with the word believe, just so that they understand. Because in the Scriptures, we see that in a couple different places where and one in John He says and many believed on him seeing the signs which he did But Jesus did not commit himself to them for he knew what was in them And so we see even the demons believe and tremble. So what kind of belief is this? It's much more.

Here's a measuring stick and a diagnostic tool that we give. And I'm going to read it. It's what Jesus says actually to the multitude in Luke chapter 14 verses 25 through 30. Now great multitudes went with Jesus and he turned and said to them, if anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes his own life also, He cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not bear his cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

For which of you intending to build a tower does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it, lest after he has laid the foundation he is not able to finish. All who see it begin to mock him, saying, This man began to build and was not able to finish." So how different is this than the gospel preaching that you encounter in so many places where we beg people to come to Jesus. That's actually not the gospel as Jesus said. Are you sure about that? You should count the cost because if you don't hate brother or sister, friend, father, mother, spouse, even your own life you can't be my disciple.

Now is he actually calling for hatred of these things? No, it's actually comparative. He's saying if your allegiance to me and your affection for me isn't so far above your allegiance to and affection for every other relationship you have, including with a spouse, including mother, father, brother, sister, your closest friends, then you cannot be my disciple. He's calling for allegiance to and affection for him so far above other people that there's really, really no comparison. And he's saying, if you don't have that, you can't be my disciple.

So in Acts chapter 8, when Philip says to the Ethiopian eunuch, if you believe with all your heart, you may, that's what he's getting at. Do you have an allegiance for me that's far and away from anything else that you have an allegiance to? Do you have an affection for me that's far and away anything else that you have an affection for? Otherwise, you can't be my disciple, and we shouldn't be baptizing people who aren't prepared to say, I've actually thought about this, I've counted the cost of this, and now I want to go forward having counted the cost. You know, I think that's the point is what Jesus is making there, is following Christ will cost you something.

It's not something that we earn, but once you follow Christ, there will be a cost to it. It is a huge cost, and sometimes in different cultures, way more than others. We have it pretty easy here in the states and it doesn't really cost too much, at least at this point. But go ahead. We do a thought experiment in this discussion where we're talking to a young person who wants to be baptized.

We say, okay, close your eyes. Now, you've been to a number of our baptisms, just take yourself there, and the person who's being baptized goes down into the water, and then they're brought up out of the water. Now, what happens? So they'll think about it and they'll say, there's clapping and cheering because there's always clapping and cheering. And then we say, what else?

They have their eyes closed, they're like, then we sing. Okay, we always sing, there is a fountain, because that's the easiest one. We all know we don't have to pass out song sheets, we all know the verses, so we always sing, there is a fountain. We sing, there is a fountain. Yes.

Okay. So at that point I say, there are things I like about that and things I really don't like about that and I want to talk about them both. What do I like about it? If you can't celebrate a baptism, What can you celebrate? If you can't sing at a baptism, when can you sing?

It's great. I love it that we clap and cheer. I love it that we sing. What don't I like about it? Because that can give the wrong idea.

That is totally out of step with almost every other time in history and almost every other place in history. What do I mean by that? Most places on planet Earth, when you come up out of the water after being baptized, your parents want nothing to do with you. Your siblings want nothing to do with you. The people who have been your friends for a decade, two decades, want nothing to do with you.

Your economic opportunities dry up. Okay, so they're not clapping and singing with the same levity that we do. So most times in human history there's been a tremendous cost, and baptism has always been the line of demarcation. They'll put up with a lot, but they won't put up with baptism because they know that that is the symbol in historic Christianity where you say, this is lifetime and I belong to Jesus Christ. And when you've done that, you have rejected the family gods.

God are gods. You've rejected the family culture, and you've put yourself on the other side of the line. Well, it's exactly opposite of that here. Your parents are delighted here. Most of your friends are delighted here.

But just know that most places, that's not what baptism is. It represents a radical shift in your relationships, and you have to be willing to part with those relationships to go down into the water. So here's what we say, we want you to think if you're in one of those other times or if you're in one of those other places would you still want to be baptized? If you can't honestly say, yes, even if I had to part with these relationships, with economic opportunities, I would want to be baptized because I have nothing if I don't have Christ. If you're not willing to say that, do not come back and ask to be baptized.

Do you think there's a connection between that and why there's not a single instance of a child being baptized in the book of Acts? There are no children being baptized in the book of Acts. There are no children being baptized in the book of Acts. I'm not sure. What would the connection be?

You reach a point in your life where you can count the cost. I see what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, it's just a question. Because this is always a big struggle, you know, to what degree does a young person understand the cost?

We've dealt with this. We've had to wrestle with this. What does it mean to, to count the cost and to, And to what level of independence and self-consciousness do you have to arise to in order to be able to do that? That's a genuine question. And I don't think we have a perfect answer for it.

Because there's what believers are embracing, but there's also what they're turning their back on forever. And so at a certain age, you have no idea what you're turning your back on. You know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer used to call this cheap grace. And in the American gospel is a cheap gospel in that sense. All you have to do is say the words.

Now on the other hand, Jesus says believe and you'll be saved. So you have these two things that seem competing. Yeah, there's always that paradox there of, you know, we don't want to fall on either side of the ditch, on either side of the road. There's this middle ground. And you know, as elders, we have a huge responsibility.

When I think about these things, and I'm thinking about young people coming or really anyone coming. I think about what the book of Hebrews, really one of the most terrifying verses in the Bible for a pastor or for an elder, where in the book of Hebrews in chapter 13, verse 17, he speaks about elders and those who rule over you will give an account for your soul. And what we are doing is soul work. We will stand before God for what we have done for these people, and especially if it's younger people coming to us. And I believe that's part of the reason why we want to do these.

We don't see, you know, necessarily examinations in the Scriptures before someone gets baptized. But I think by precept and principle, we would say, hey, we have serious work to do here. And it's only responsible for us to take that time to see if there is, as the convention speaks, about a credible profession of faith. And you know, there's even a glimpse of this, I think about not only the baptism, but the other ordinance of the Lord's Supper. And in the Lord's Supper, because we see that the Lord's Supper will follow for someone who's been baptized recently, and in that passage in chapter 11 there, we see that one of the things that's given there after the Lord's Supper is being instituted by Paul, he says, first let a man examine himself, and then let him partake.

And so, in answering that question, I believe a person needs to be, at least at the point where they can seriously examine themselves, have the wherewithal to look on the inner man and to examine where they are. Are they taking this in a worthy manner or an unworthy manner? And as elders, as pastors, we actually have a responsibility not to lead people astray and not to lead people into a situation where they have not examined or not able because the warnings there in 1 Corinthians 11 are so severe. Some have gotten sick, some have died because they've taken the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner. So it's very serious and so we want to try to make sure there's a credible profession of faith.

Yeah, I feel like we would be derelict of duty if as elders we did not do these things. Sometimes there's some pushback towards elders regarding these things, but we take our role in the church very seriously and to, as much as we possibly can, to understand the spiritual state of someone. You know, Dennis Gunderson wrote a book about how to discern the profession of faith. And He gives questions that he asks of people, particularly young people, in the baptism process, just to help that young person articulate. And I'll read some of the questions.

There's several of them, but I thought they were helpful, and then maybe we can wrap it up. These are questions that just discern the spiritual condition of a child. What do you enjoy most in your Bible reading? Do you find it easier or hard to pray? What do you pray for when you pray?

What are your strongest temptations to sin? What do you like most about the church? If you weren't raised in a Christian home, what would you miss about it most of all? When your church has the Lord's Supper, what are you thinking about? This is in his book, Your Child's Profession of Faith.

He asks, what do you want to do with your life for the Lord? If a friend asks you how to become a Christian, what would you say? Which of your friends are Christians? Who encourages you the most to walk with the Lord? These are questions that really assume some level of self-consciousness.

Are there certain hymns and songs that you like the most? If your church has a covenant, what does it say? Have you read the Church covenant? Have you, have there been times when you felt especially close to the Lord? What is the Lord teaching you?

Do you have strong assurance of your salvation? What temptations do you feel most powerfully, and what do you do when they come? I mean, those are questions that actually assume at least some level of maturity, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. Three things from me as parting shots. One, I come to this as a father who definitely baptized two of my own children prematurely.

How do I know that? Because two of my children have come to me and said, Dad, when you baptized me, I was not born again. I became born again years after my baptism. Recently, my son was baptized by the church because he was so convinced that he was saved after, long after we baptized him, that He actually wanted to give a testimony to the church, and he wanted to be baptized as a believer, and we did it. So this is not just theoretical for me.

I know for sure that I baptized two of my children prematurely. They weren't trying to pull the wool over everybody's eyes. I wasn't, obviously, wasn't trying to baptize them. I thought I was doing the right thing at the time. The second thing I would say is this is not adults or church leaders saying young children cannot be saved or this particular young person isn't saved.

It's church leaders or adults saying because of the dynamics involved with younger children, none of us can have the confidence at this time that they're saved. I think a lot of time it gets interpreted, you're saying my child isn't saved. I'm saying I don't know and I'm saying you shouldn't be saying that you know with great confidence because of the dynamics that are involved here. Finally, this is the text that we always end this meeting with. It's Luke 18, 9 through 14.

Also Jesus spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others. Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God I thank you that I'm not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I possess, and the tax collector standing afar off would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you this man went down to his house justified rather than the other.

For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exalted. And we want to say to these children who desire to be baptized, we also desire you to be baptized. We want to make sure that you have the heart of the tax collector that has said, God be merciful to me, a sinner, that you've actually felt the weight of your sins and know that Jesus Christ is the only one who can give you relief. Our children are growing up in good homes. There's a lot to be thankful for, but one of the risks is that they've never been allowed to let their inclinations run.

And so some of them are all polished up nice on the outside because we've been doing the polishing and we wouldn't let them do everything that was in their heart. And so we want to make sure actually that they've actually felt the weight of sin and have that sense of, God, be merciful to me, a sinner. And we sort of close out these discussions. If you're that, when you go away and think about it, if you're that, come back. But don't come back until you have a clear sense of that.

Yeah. Two of the things that I really focus on, especially with younger children, would be their understanding of sin. And then I've asked before, are you a sinner? And then in what ways? Sometimes they have a skewed view of what sin is.

And then the other one would be what repentance is. It's amazing to me how many people have a misunderstanding or a wrong understanding of what repentance is. So I really delve in on those. Okay, guys, thanks. Appreciate it very much.

Great subject. Tough subject for sure. Okay. And thank you for joining us on the Church and Family Life podcast. We hope you can come and join us next time.

I hope this resource was a blessing to you. It's our desire to equip a generation to walk in the sufficiency of scripture for church and family life. All this is made possible by those who support us. Would you consider coming alongside and helping us proclaim the sufficiency of scripture for church and family life.