Welcome to the Church and Family Life podcast. Today we're going to talk about baptism, baptizing babies or baptizing believers. And we've got Robert Bosley and Jason Dome with us here. And by the way, Robert just preached two really good messages on this subject at our church. Jason Dome has done the same.

We're gonna put those in the show notes. We hope you enjoy the discussion. ["Spring Day in the Dome"] Well, as we've said many times, some of our best friends are Presbyterians. They actually baptize children. And we quote them every week when we preach.

We quote them all the time. We love them, but we do have a disagreement. We do have an intramural discussion with our dear Presbyterian brothers. We think they're wrong about it, but I think... And we'd like to talk about that.

So I think the discussion boils down to what covenant are we talking about, and also if you have a covenant child, what kind of covenant are we talking about? And the other is, you know, who should be admitted into the membership of the church? Those are really big issues for us. And I know, Robert, You've preached recently a couple of messages at our church about it. I really like the messages, and we're gonna put links in the notes to this thing.

So let's try to break this thing down into two big categories. Let's first of all talk about the covenant. What kind of covenants are we dealing with here? And then let's jet to sort of the New Testament case for credo-baptism. So covenant theology, What is covenant theology and how does it relate to baptism?

Yeah, so covenant theology is kind of this hermeneutical framework of looking at scripture, what ties the whole story of scripture together. And covenant theology says, well, it's God's working with man by means of covenant. So the question is, what is a covenant? And a lot of people will say, well, it's essentially a contract and there's truth to that, but it's more than just saying, hey, you do this, I'll do this. There's also sanctions, there's promises, things like that.

Sam Renahan, in his book on Credo-Baptism and Covenant Theology, he defined it as a guaranteed commitment. So there's a promise to do something with sanctions for disobedience. So that idea of covenant undergirding the whole story of scripture, tying that all together. So often our Presbyterian brothers consider Reformed Baptist covenant light, meaning a thinner version of covenant because we don't actually get baptism. And honestly, for a long time with me and my Baptist theology, I would say that was actually true of me.

But it wasn't true of our Baptist forefathers. They actually had thought through very carefully and systematically the relationship of the covenants from Genesis to Revelation, and it had come to different conclusions, but it wasn't because they actually hadn't considered those things. So if you go back centuries, you find out the Reformed Baptist theology isn't covenant light, covenant theology light, but it's actually a really well thought out system. And we just disagree on how the covenants relate to each other in certain places. Let's talk about two ways that the covenants are talked about.

Covenant of redemption and covenant of grace. And what does that have to do with this discussion about baptizing babies in the New Testament era? So both the covenant of redemption and covenant of grace, these are what are often called theological covenants. These are not covenants that are named specifically in Scripture, but they're titles that we give to things that we see in Scripture. So covenant of grace would be the covenant between God and the elect, where he promises that by Christ he's going to save his people, and that flows from the covenant of redemption, where this is an inter-trinitarian covenant between the persons of the Godhead, where the Father is going to elect a people to give to the Son and the Spirit is going to apply that work.

And so even from the very beginning all of God's interaction with man and dealing with man is covenantal. Now when that comes down to signs of the covenants, the Presbyterian system, which is reflected in the Westminster Confession and also similar languages in the Savoy Declaration of the Congregationalists, you have this idea that the covenant of grace is administered differently under the old and new covenants, those biblical covenants that we see in Scripture. What you were talking about, Jason, our Baptist forefathers were very intentionally covenantal, but they didn't just copy the Presbyterians. You look at the Second London Confession, they didn't delete the chapter on God's covenant, but they substantially reworded it. That whole language of one covenant with two administrations is removed with the idea of God by farther steps revealing His covenant of grace, starting with Adam to the full discovery in Christ.

And so that is what where we, the connection between the covenant of grace and the biblical covenants, that's working that out. And how you understand this is going to determine your view on baptism. Because ultimately we agree with the Presbyterians, you baptize members of the New Covenant. The question is, who is in the New Covenant? So actually we're doing a podcast on baptism, but we don't wanna start in the New Testament, which is where you find baptism, because we think the question we're really answering is who's in the New Covenant.

And whoever that is, you ought to be baptizing. So I think we wanna begin under the Mosaic Covenant, the prophets under the Mosaic Covenant, and what God had them saying, prophesying about the New Covenant. And so, I think we'll begin today in Jeremiah 31. Let me read Jeremiah 31 verses 31 through 34. So before you read that, we've got to read that.

But you know, the contention that the Presbyterians have is that in the old covenant, unbelievers were included in the old covenant. You know, Israel was a mixed multitude and therefore in the new covenant, it's also a mixed multitude. So, it, you're, you're including a baby, who has not been converted. You have the unconverted in the covenant. That's a huge sticking point for me.

What covenant are we talking about? So go ahead. Yeah, this is Old Testament prophecy about the New Covenant. So it was promised to come and it was brought in by the Lord Jesus Christ. Jeremiah 31, 31 through 34, Behold the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be my people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will remember no more." So we have the introduction of the term new covenant and it actually speaks of who will be in the New Covenant. And it also speaks of what kind of covenant it is.

It is intentionally set up as a contrast from the Old Covenant. I will make a New Covenant not like or not according to the covenant I made with their fathers, the covenant that they broke. So right there in that passage, you have the idea that the new covenant is, well, it's new, it's different, it's not like the old covenant. And I think the fact that he says it's not like it, the covenant that they broke, his point is, this is a covenant that won't be broken. This is a new covenant, it's a better covenant, it's an unbreakable covenant, and it goes on, and it's better and superior because It's all those who are in this covenant know the Lord.

They have the law of God written on their heart in a new way. You have all these blessings that it's really hard for me to see how you can say, well, that applies to the Christians and their unbelieving children. No, it says in verse 34, their iniquities are forgiven and their sins are remembered no more. So it's really clear who's in the New Covenant. So let's talk about the New Testament.

Do you want to talk about the Old Testament anymore about this? The Old Covenant is distinct from the New Covenant. I think that's one thing we're trying to say, and Jeremiah 31 makes that really, really clear. But is there anything else before we jet to the New Testament? Well, I would just say that the people in this covenant, you don't need to teach your brother or your neighbor to know the Lord, because they all know the Lord from the least to the greatest.

This is sort of definitional about who's in this covenant. The definition is, they know the Lord. And we would say to parents, especially to parents of small children, you better be telling them to know the Lord. So this is...we're not talking about people who don't already know the Lord being in this covenant. And in our homes, a key function of ours is to teach our children to know the Lord, to exhort them to know the Lord, and to tell them to repent and believe the gospel.

Right. And that whole section of Jeremiah 31 is quoted in Hebrews 8, and again, partially quoted in Hebrews 10, that whole section of Hebrews 8, 9, and 10, a long discourse where the author of Hebrews is laying out the superiority of the New Covenant. And that's, it's hard to see how you can hold on to that great emphasis on the superiority of the new covenant. It's difference in nature, but still saying it's simply a different administration of the old covenant, or a different administration of the covenant of grace. It seems that it's very clearly something totally distinct.

And let's just talk through some of the Hebrews texts. I'll just name some of them. Hebrews 8, 6 through 13, Hebrews 10, 10 through 18, and 12 to 24. So, and Hebrews 12, 18 to 24. So let's just, Hebrews is a critical touchstone with Jeremiah 31.

Yeah, that section in Jeremiah is quoted in Hebrews and the whole point he says, if the first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. And then he goes on to quote that section in Hebrews, but then he concludes in that he says, a new covenant, he has made the first obsolete and what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. So the whole old covenant system, the temple sacrifices, all that's passing away. But his point seems to be that the substance of that covenant is passing away, not simply being transferred to a new administration by Jesus. And you get into chapter 10, he quotes that again.

And what was it again? Hebrews 10. 10. 10. 10.

By that will, by the will of God, we've been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands, ministering daily, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices that can never take away sins. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till his enemies are made his footstool. For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. The Holy Spirit also witnesses to us for after he had said before, and he again quotes Jeremiah 31, where there is remission of these, where there's remission of these sins, there is no longer an offering for sin.

So he ties all this together. Christ's once and for all sacrifice for sins. There's no more sacrifices in the new covenant because all those who are covenant members have their sins forgiven. He is in verse 14, he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. He's clearly talking about new covenant members are those who are being sanctified and have their sins forgiven.

You cannot have unbelievers in that kind of a covenant. Right. So that's what the covenant is. It's a covenant of believers, those who have the law of God written on the heart, their sins are forgiven, God doesn't remember their iniquity anymore, how can we find room to say, well, we give the covenant sign intentionally to unbelieving children? Where do you think we should start in the New Testament when we think about baptism?

The Great Commission, Matthew 28. It's the first command to baptize. You actually have baptism, the baptism of John happening in Matthew 3, and there are probably some significant things there, but the first command to baptize is the Great Commission, Matthew 28. Right, exactly. So Christ gives the marching orders for the church, as it were, to go make disciples by baptizing them and teaching them to obey all that He's commanded.

And so the idea is you're making disciples, what does it look like to make disciples? Well, it begins with baptism, and then they spend the rest of their life learning to obey Jesus. And so implicit in that is, well, what is a disciple? It's mathetes. It's a student, someone who's learning.

And even implicit in the language of a disciple is someone who's learning, they're growing in their understanding of these commands, that's not a newborn infant. That's someone who's able to hear the words of Jesus, reflect on it, and consider how they can obey that first step of obedience in baptism. Just to add to that, a disciple is someone who is taking a master. So I come to you to learn from you to become like you, and I entrust myself to you and place myself under your instruction. So when we're talking about making disciples, that's what we're talking about.

People who are going to follow Jesus, take him as master and learn to become like him. How would you answer the objection? Well, that's what every faithful parent should do is begin teaching their children when they're, when they are babies, to teach them to be obedient, to teach them, you know, teach them the things that are consistent with the law of God. How would you answer that question? I mean, I think we say amen to that.

I don't think we differ on that. But the question is, do they come out of the womb as a disciple of Jesus, and almost all Presbyterians would answer that question in the same way that we do. No, they don't. For instance... A follower, a disciple is a follower.

Right, is a follower of Jesus Christ. And most disciples who have come to discipleship, having Jesus as their master, if that's happened later in your life, there have been many links in the chain where you were learning things that God was using in your life before that decisive point where you repented and believed the gospel and so it is of our children. And we would never denigrate the idea that we begin teaching our children the minute they're born, Maybe in the womb. We're singing to them in the womb. Like, we're starting the discipleship process.

We're preaching the gospel to them all the time, you know, even before they're born. But that's not the same thing as having a disciple, a person who is following. They're not following yet. You know, They're being taught things so that they might follow someday. So you have a sequence, and the sequence matters in Matthew 28, the Great Commission.

Step one is go. We're not to keep the good news of Jesus Christ to ourselves, we're to go with this message and proclaim the message. We are to make disciples and then we are to baptize those disciples and we are to teach them to observe all things that Jesus has commanded. So Steve Lawson in preaching on this text says, make, mark, mature. Make disciples, mark them as disciples, and I think that's a really helpful way to think of what baptism is.

It is this line of delineation that people who take Jesus as master to follow Him for the rest of their days, this is the line of demarcation, that they are to cross over. God has given us this line to step over when we become disciples. We are marked as disciples in baptism, and then the rest of our life is maturing, learning to observe the things that He commanded. Make, mark, mature. You know, everyone agrees that there's no explicit example or pattern or command for baptizing children in the New Testament.

It just doesn't exist. Presbyterians understand that. It's clear in the Bible. They infer it from Old Testament covenant theology, but you have this reality that there are no infant baptisms in the New Testament. So let's talk about the New Testament teaching on baptism, you know, going beyond Matthew 28.

Although I would say sometimes it is inferred from the household baptisms. Yes. There are, so there are, let's address that, there are five household baptisms in the New Testament. In three of the five, you can tell definitively from the text the people who were baptized, and definitively it is people who heard and embraced the contents of the message, they believed and they were baptized. So there are five, in three of the five you can tell who it is, and it's explicit that they believed and were baptized.

And in the other two you just can't tell. You don't have enough data to know really anything about them. In fact, in the fifth one, it just says the household of Stephanas, that's it. So there's not the data to know. But even at the end of 1 Corinthians 6, talking about the household of Stephanas, it talks about how his whole household is involved in the ministry of the apostles.

And so it seems like, at least by implication, the whole household believed. And that's what's amazing about the household baptisms. It's not that there's infants that receive the covenant sign, it's that God has done such an amazing work of grace that entire families were converted. And so they all are following the Lord. Now it doesn't say the age of any children, it doesn't say if there are any children, but whoever's in that household, that's what's remarkable is they heard the gospel, they all believed and rejoiced and were baptized.

And you see that happening in families. You'll find the gospel running through a family, but does it run to the babies? Well, at least it... No, it doesn't. It runs to the adults for those who are self-conscious and can follow Jesus Christ.

Just to comment on Matthew 3 and the precursor to Christian baptism. So you actually have baptism in the New Testament before you have Christian baptism, and that is John's baptism, John the Baptist. Jesus actually even submits himself to baptism in Matthew chapter 3. A couple of things I would say is as John is a forerunner to Jesus, that John's baptism is actually a forerunner to Christian baptism and actually tells us things about it. And it was a baptism of repentance.

And we believe that Christian baptism is a fuller, completed version of that. It is also a baptism of repentance, but it goes further. It's repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. So it's not fundamentally different. In fact, in John chapter 4, we find that Jesus is making and baptizing disciples.

You often forget about that, but Jesus was also a Baptist in John 4. He is making disciples and baptizing those disciples. And we think the Christian church should be doing that as well in that order, which is always the order that you find in the New Testament. Right. And you have the matter of faith in Galatians 3, 26 and 27.

You know, Paul is explicitly connecting faith with baptism. And by faith, we become sons and daughters. And by baptism, we're identified with them. That's Galatians 3. So let's just keep talking about the New Testament.

Let's run through the New Testament testimony, which is very clear. Just one more thought on John's baptism. John's preaching, ironically, was that it isn't bloodlines. He actually says, don't tell me that Abraham's your father. God can raise up descendants to Abraham from these stones.

So the message of the New Testament, the preaching of the New Testament from the very beginning, even before Jesus and his disciples were preaching, was John's preaching was that, stop relying on bloodlines. You repent. Unless you repent, you will be lost. And he's saying this to Israelites. He's saying this to the circumcised.

So what is Peter talking about in Acts 2, 38-41 where he says, You and your children, as many as the Lord will call to himself. Well, who are these children? Well, first of all, that's a bad place to start, because it starts with the problem, but it's actually referencing upstream, which is when the people hear Peter preaching, the text says that they're cut to the heart, their consciences are smitten by the preaching of Peter, and they say, what should we do in response to these truths that you're preaching? And he says, repent, and every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, then what you quoted, this promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, for all whom the Lord our God will call. And we say, that Baptists say a hearty amen to all of that and don't find the fact that the promise is to the children to be a threat at all because the promise is that if you repent and you're baptized in the name of Jesus, then you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Yeah. Often when this text is brought up by our Pato Baptist brothers, they'll read or recite the promises to you and to your children. I think there's even a book for infant baptism by that title and stop as if that's the end of the sentence. But that's- Or the beginning. Or the only thing.

That's the whole sermon. That's all Peter said. But the point is, you know, think about what they had just heard. They were responsible for the death of the Messiah. And Peter is assuring them, no, this promise is still for you and your children.

Yes, he's using language from the Old Testament. Israel's not been utterly cut off. You're not beyond salvation. God's going to give this promise of the forgiveness of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit, to you and to those who are far off, whoever God calls to himself, this is for the elect, no matter what nationality they are, even you Israelites who have committed this heinous sin of rejecting the Christ, you can still be forgiven and receive this gift. It's not about covenant membership of infants.

It's about there's free and full forgiveness of sins and you can be brought in no matter what you've done. And we want to join in in being comforted and encouraged that the promise that if you repent and are baptized that you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, that that promise extends to our children. Of course that's a comfort and an encouragement to us as we strive to bring up our children in the training and ammunition of the Lord. Amen. Amen.

Okay, final thoughts and we'll be done. Jason, why don't you go first and then Robert and we'll tie it up. So I think Romans 6 plays a really important part because it actually is indicating what baptism symbolizes And it symbolizes the identification of the believer in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So when we baptize someone, what is being symbolized, they are united with Christ in His death, and so they're also united with Christ in His resurrection. That is what the picture is.

So when we consider the issue of baptism, we have to understand this is an important issue. This is a very serious matter of obedience. How do we obey the Christ's command to be baptized? We have very serious disagreements with our Presbyterian brothers. One side is right, one side is wrong, but at the same time, it's not a first tier issue.

It will separate churches. We're not gonna go to church together. We are gonna go to heaven together. So we should debate this with open Bibles over a cup of coffee, but still recognize that each one, we're brothers in the Lord, and we can serve the Lord often together, even though it will divide us in churches. Hey, any of us could go street preach alongside Kevin Swanson and Joel Beke.

At the drop of a hat, we've embraced the same gospel, we would be preaching the same gospel. These are our favorite Presbyterians or among them, you know. And so we might give them more time than there's so much there's I know because they're such powerful preachers of the gospel. There's so much that we have in common. In fact, I would say that we probably have more in common theologically with them than we have with many, quote-unquote, normal Baptists.

Amen. Okay. Hey, thank you, brothers. Thank you so much. And thank you for joining us on the Church and Family Life podcast, and we hope you can join us next time.

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