Welcome to the Church and Family Life podcast. Today we're going to talk about what women's ministry looks like in the church. Scripture is sufficient for it. I hope you enjoy the discussion. Jason, we've all watched the trajectory of the church over the last decades of women's ministry in the church, and now there are actual debates about whether women should preach and things like that.

So there definitely has been drift in broad evangelicalism. And so we want to talk about what biblical women's ministry looks like from Titus, too. So our, I think one of both of our favorite conferences was the Sufficiency of Scripture Conference, Cincinnati 2009. Jeff Pollard there gave two messages on women's ministry. The reason it was assigned to Jeff Pollard is he never shoots from the hip.

He always, especially when you assign him something controversial, he does the homework really thoroughly, and what he says is right down the middle, and he doesn't play with controversial things. He gives you the Bible as it is. And so I think we're going to do some shorthand for that today. But for anybody who's interested and wants to go back in on the Church and Family Life website, you go to that conference, you go to those two talks, and you'll sort of get a longer, more comprehensive version. We've been really thankful for that deposit, Jeff.

Yeah. And I think just right out of the gate, we want to say there are prohibitions and perhaps one of the most controversial prohibitions that the Bible makes very clear is that women should not be teaching men. And I think we're just going to lay that on the table, but we want to move through Titus 2 and walk through the list of, particularly, the seven elements of women's ministry in the Church of Jesus Christ. So Jeff, thank you so much for joining us. It's great to have you back on this discussion.

Wonderful to be here. And I'm thankful that you're taking up this subject. Well, if We want to jump right into it. I would say at the beginning of what I'm going to set before you is that whatever else someone may conclude from looking at what they would call trajectories or what they think the Bible is pointing to, my concern is the seven things that older women are to teach younger women that are being ignored when they go and learn how to teach Greek, or learn to teach systematic theology, or those kinds of things, and who and when they teach. So I think this text is vital.

So let's just jump right in. In verse 1, Paul says to Titus, But speak thou the things which become or which are fitting for sound doctrine. He is to teach and to preach the gospel and the apostolic doctrine so that there will be transformation in the men and women of the congregation. He starts off with aged men, then he goes to the aged women in number three. He says that aged women likewise, that they be in behavior as becometh or as is fitting for holiness.

And then he says, not false accusers, not given them much wine, teachers of good things, that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed." Whatever else women are taught, whatever else women may teach, here is what God tells Titus to preach the gospel and the doctrine of the apostles for. Transformed women, beginning with the aged women, there to be holy. They're supposed to show forth a whole in life as the representatives of Jesus Christ, not false accusers. The word accusers there is also translated devil in another place. They're not to be devils with their tongue.

They're not to be drunkards, not given much wine, and they're to be teachers of good things. Yeah. Let's just break these down. The first one is to love their husbands. What does that mean?

Well, why in the world would Paul take the time to say, teach women to love their husbands? Don't they already do that? It seems to be a question that is a little mysterious. The fact of the matter is throughout history, men and women did not get married for love as their first reason. You can read books on marriage that go back for centuries, even millennia.

So In Paul's day, women were generally 12 to 18 years of age when they got married, and that was to protect their virginity so that there could be heirs, genuine and legitimate heirs, for the family property. They didn't choose their husbands, who were usually 10 to 15 years older than they, and they were usually—the men were usually expected to be sexually active, where the women were not supposed to be. And this is in a Greco-Roman context. So it would not be unusual whatsoever that a godly older woman would be able to take young women in a situation like that and teach them the love of Christ, teach them how to love like Christ loves, and then to love their husbands in a biblical way, not a Hollywood way. Interesting she begins with the head of the household.

So all that contextual stuff, contextual information is helpful. But at the same time, all of this is timeless and it's as important today as relevant today. If you just take a few steps back, I think what you find is an admonition that, and Jeff has already started us down this track, a godly, spiritually mature woman takes under her wing younger, less experienced, still growing in their faith, young women to teach them about the things that will be core to their life, like going right to the core of their calling as women. And so it's not a surprise at all that the first thing on the list would be to teach them to love their husbands. Not managing their Instagram account.

Yeah. Go for their husbands. Yeah, for sure. And there's another reason for that. Everybody in this country has been polluted with Hollywood's idea of love.

So there would have to be teaching on love according to the gospel of Jesus Christ, love according to God's free grace to us, love as we find it in Christ Jesus, not as the world sees it. So her priority is to teach the younger women to love their husbands, then to love their children. What are your thoughts on that? Why is that number two in the list? Well, experienced older women who love the Lord Jesus Christ can teach younger women how to train up their children in the way they should go.

They can help them to govern a child's will and to discipline him or her, according to God's infallible word. The world is not going to teach them that. I've been in family courts and I can say without any hesitation, the idea of biblically loving your children is very often a complete mystery. Scott, you and Deborah also knew Edgar and Zina Lee Wheeler. Yes, indeed.

A retired couple. He had been a pastor for more than 40 years, and they were part of the church that we were part of at that time, and they sort of adopted our small group of just married couples just starting to have their children. And what a treasure Zina Lee Wheeler was, this godly, spiritually mature mother helping us all, really, to learn how to love these little children as we were having them. So we've really seen up close just the advantages that you have for a spiritually mature mother who has been through the wars of motherhood, who can help these young women who really, in many ways, when you have your first child, you might have read the books, but you really don't know exactly what you're in for, but a gray headed woman does. We got defining and transformative and really memorable sound bites that we still think about today.

And I repeat to couples as well. So loving their children as a priority to teach them what it looks like to love their children. And then to be discreet. Let's talk about that. What is an older woman teaching when she's teaching the younger women to be discreet?

Well, the word discreet is translated from the Greek, and it means to be in control of oneself, to be prudent. Prudence is wisdom coupled with caution. In other words, it's about teaching them to be sensible. Young women often lack good sense because of the things they've been taught in government schools, the things they've been taught in college, the things that they've been taught by Hollywood, the things they've been taught by rock and roll. Once again, to be taught according to the precious word of God, what it means to have some common sense in how you spend your money, what you wear, what you listen to, et cetera.

Yeah, I think it's related to letting your emotions run you. You're the defining thought leader in your life. It's really all about you, but no, there's something more important and better for you to be discreet. So let's talk about keepers at home. This is again one of the more controversial statements here, to teach the younger women to be keepers at home.

So what does that look like? So I think Proverbs 31 helps us because it sets forth a woman whose life is a home-based life, but it's also a rigorous, robust life. And what you have in Proverbs 31 is a woman who is effectively managing a home, which is good for her home, good for the people who live in that home, especially the children, the husband too. And a husband then who is free to go and be in the gates and exert influence in his community because all things are well at home. 007 She's ruling her home.

She has an area of dominion taking called her home. She has authority there under her husband, and she is making tracks in her home. In Proverbs 31, you see a woman who has such latitude. This is viewed as very constraining. It's because it's not understood.

If you go to Proverbs 31, this is not a woman who is, you know, tied down. This is a woman who has so much latitude and is operating really effectively and for the good of everybody around her. Yeah, her husband trusts her And she's got agency. I think it would be important to bring up the fact that one of the reasons this is controversial is because in the Greek texts, there's what's called a textual variant. And in some texts have the word oikouros, the other texts have oikourgos.

Now they are similar, but they're not identical. One of them can mean watching or keeping the house, staying at home. Homemaker, devoted to duties. Okay, those kinds of things are important. But the other word does not give the idea as the first one does, that a woman can't go out of the house.

There are men who take that first word, and when it says, keepers at home, it means staying at home, never working outside the home, or anything like that. And I think that's stretching what is being meant here when we look at the other passages. Proverbs 31 is an excellent passage to go to. We can't deny the fact that Ruth, who is a great heroine in the Christian faith, Ruth worked outside the house in a context where there were men around. She supported herself and her mother-in-law by working out of the house.

So we have to take all of the scriptures to look at them and wisely apply those things. So keepers at home, let's go on to the next one. A good, she is teaching the younger women to be good. What a great word, to be good. What is he saying?

Well, it's a word that means moral excellence. It also means kindness. A lot of the translations lean in that direction, but in her house, in her church, and in all her relations, a woman needs to be good and kind. An older woman who has been for years dealing with people has had to learn some of those lessons that she can pass on in a very sweet way. And then finally, she is to teach the younger women to be obedient to their own husbands.

Obedient to their own husbands. Well, not every husband, not every man in the world, but their own husbands. There's this focusing that God has for godly women to have their eyes upon their husband. It's a difficult challenge for a woman to submit to a sinful man, even a Christian man. It's a real challenge especially, again, of what they hear, both from their flesh and the world and the devil.

But it's a very important aspect. It doesn't mean that a husband has an absolute rule over his wife as a human being, but that he is the God-appointed head of the church, and he is given that authority to do good, not to do his whims. And in that scenario, we need men who understand that authority is the easiest thing in the world to abuse, and that God hasn't given them authority so that just everything goes their way. It is for everything in the house to go God's way. So that takes humble men and men that use their authority for the care of their wives, not the slavery of their wives.

Yeah. Amen. In Genesis chapter three, when sin comes into the world and then God comes and pronounces a curse on the serpent, then the woman, then the man, this is part of what he says to the woman, your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you. Then in chapter four, in the account of Cain and Abel, God says to Cain, sin's desire is for you, but you should rule over it." So you can get the interpretation from that. Meaning, in chapter three, in what God says to the woman, there's a recognition that with sin coming into the world, a struggle in the home to rule and to dominate has come in because our natures have come corrupt.

And so I think Paul is picking up on this being a marital reality. None of us particularly have an inclination to obey, and with a new heart you get new affections, but still this is a struggle in marriage. And so Paul is addressing this and calling the wife into her role as a subordinate to her husband, equal but not with the same role. So there you have it. This is what biblical women's ministry looks like in the Church of Jesus Christ, that the older women teach their younger women to love their husbands, love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, teach what is good, obedient to their husbands, but then he actually gives the reason why this is so important in the church, and that is, in verse 5, so that the Word of God might not be blasphemed.

So how does the Word of God get blasphemed when a woman turns away from these things, or if an older woman doesn't teach these things? So I think the flow of thought is really clear. Paul is calling older, spiritually mature women to teach the younger women how to live out their primary calling in the world. And when that doesn't happen, when younger women reject their primary calling from God, then the onlookers from the outside speak against the Word of God. Because if the people of God won't order our lives around these things, then who will?

If the people of God won't defend these things as good by obeying them, then the word of God is spoken against. I would add that if the older women do not teach the younger women these vital things, it will not be passed to the next generation. You lose it generationally, and that's a tragic loss. On top of that, the Titus II woman in herself, that is not an office. It's important that be understood.

The offices in the congregation are elders and deacons, but this is not an office, but it is a function of the body, something that men cannot do and something that older women are well equipped to do. Amen. All this for really the recovery of the elements of biblical ministry to women in the church. So brothers, thank you. Thank you so much for the discussion.

There's so much more to save it. Jeff, thanks for being with us. Glad to be with you. I love both of you and the one. And thank you for joining us on the Church and Family Life podcast.

I hope you can join us next time.