Child Discipline by Jason Dohm. How do we address our children's behavior as a husband and wife? What is discipline and why is it necessary? What does the Bible say about a child's heart and how do we apply it?

For this slot, we'll be talking about child discipline, and I'm actually focusing on the rod. I realize there are other methods of discipline for children, but I'm speaking on a fundamental one, which is the use of the rod. Why are we talking about this at a marriage conference? Because a lot of effort in the first 10 years of marriage often comes with parenting and trying to sort out how we address our children when there's behavior that isn't what it ought to be, parents aren't always agreed on that, haven't come out of similar backgrounds with that, have come into marriage with different thoughts about that. And so we all need to just be calibrated to what scripture says and committed to following that.

The tide has definitively turned against corporal discipline, which means spanking's out of favor. That's the understatement. Spanking is viewed more broadly out there as abusive and inappropriate. So the modern trends are in exactly the opposite direction of what the Proverbs teach. And It's really, it's not just out there.

There are popular evangelical voices too who are more likely to quote the American Academy of Pediatrics than they are to quote the Bible. They dismiss the Bible, but we are the people of God and the definitive voice for us is not the American Academy of Pediatrics, it is the Bible. So in this environment we have to have a firm grasp on what the Bible teaches and we have to be ready to obey it and we have to be ready to defend it. Friends, if we don't defend it, we are going to lose it because of the torrent that is headed in the other direction. So here's what we'll be doing with our time.

I have three major headings. The first is to review what the Bible says about the rod from the book of Proverbs. Proverbs has a lot to say about the use of the rod. So we'll start there then. The second point will be to put the rod within a theological framework.

That's always something we must do. How does this relate to God so that it becomes more than just a child training technique? The rod is a child training technique, but it's so much more than that, and we need to set it in a theological framework so that we have an understanding of how it relates to the God that we're serving. And then finally, number three, I'll provide some practical thoughts on the application of the rod. So just a dude who has been in the child raising business for a long time, who has friends who have been in the child training business for a long time.

What are some observations based on a few decades of experience that might help you in your first decade or so of experience. So let's ask God to help us. God, your word points it out and we have known it by experience that your thoughts are as high above our thoughts as the heavens are above the earth. Your ways are above our ways. And we want to be retrained.

We want to be lifted up to embrace your thoughts and ways, to love your thoughts and ways, to obey your thoughts and ways, and to defend your thoughts and ways. I pray you would use these moments to those purposes. Please send your Holy Spirit to give us help now as we consider these things in Jesus' name. Amen. Okay, number one, to review what the Bible says about the rod from Proverbs, Please turn in your Bibles to Proverbs chapter 13 verse 24.

Proverbs 13 verse 24. You knew I was going to quote this one it was inevitable so we'll start here uh... Proverbs thirteen twenty four he who spares his rod hates his son but he who loves him disciplines him properly we'll read it again he who spares his rod hates his son but he who loves him disciplines him properly I don't know how you could put it with higher stakes than that this is about loving or hating our children according to scripture. The popular cultural deviation of this is spare the rod, spoil the child. So don't spoil that kid, spank that kid.

No, no, no, That's not what the Bible says. The Bible doesn't say don't spoil your kid. The Bible says don't hate your kid. Love your kid. Instead, we shouldn't spoil our children, I guess, but there's so much more wrapped up in this than whether you're spoiling your kid or not this is a this is about true love or hatred toward your children the Bible raises the stakes to that level The first thing I'll say here is that this is about father and son and by implication parent and child.

In other words, certainly it has to do with mothers and not just fathers. It's said about fathers and sons in this verse, but it applies to mothers and daughters too. But it is significant that it is a father who is addressed here. I think we should take from that that as the head of a home every dad is the chief disciplinarian. Dad, you must think of yourself this way as the chief disciplinarian in the home.

Well, my wife spends almost all of her hours in caring for our children, so really, you know, that's sort of her thing. No, no, not according to God, not according to the Proverbs. A father might not be there for many hours of the day and so a mom, a wife and a mom, might be applying the rod during those but she's doing that with his delegated blessing and authority. But when he, my view, my view, one man's view, when I'm there, I'm doing it. Okay, why?

Because I'm the chief disciplinarian and I don't want my children to think that's mom's thing. Because it's not mom's thing. Because as the head of my home, I'm the chief disciplinarian in my home. So I don't want to communicate by me being present but her being the one to address behavior that isn't what it ought to be in the home, to communicate that she's in this by herself, that she's the heavy. I'm chief disciplinarian and I want to communicate that by me being the one who is applying the rod when I am there because I understand and embrace that I am chief disciplinarian as the head of the household.

This word that's rendered rod or translated rod here comes from a Hebrew that the Strong's dictionary says literally means a stick for punishing. It's a stick for punishing. It's actually a tool to be used to bring punishment for behavior that contradicts what the Bible says is good. If you spare, or the NASB translates it withhold, if you withhold the rod, hold back, it is actually hatred. We don't think of it that way.

We think it's merciful. I don't do it because I'm merciful. Think of how cruel that mercy is if Proverbs is true. That is a cruel kind of mercy. You never want what you think is merciful towards your children to actually be a cruelty and this is just as a pitfall that we have to worry about that our tender heartedness would actually be a cruelty for our children.

That risk is here. If you really love your children, you will really discipline them promptly, right? That's what the verse says. He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him promptly. The NASB and the ESV, instead of promptly, render it diligently.

Now, why does New King James translate it promptly, but the NASB and ESV translate it diligently? Well, when you look it up in the lexicon, you find out exactly why, because there are two senses of this word. The first sense is the speed of taking action. So the New King James says, okay, speed of taking action, we'll translate it promptly. But the second sense is earnestness in the undertaking.

So that the NASB and the ESV have picked up on the second sense of the word. And so for earnestness in undertaking, they've translated it diligently. And the truth is both of these things are necessary with the application of the rod. A prompt confronting of inappropriate behavior and then an undertaking it in a diligent or earnest manner. Consider Ecclesiastes 8 verse 11.

This is a really interesting verse, Ecclesiastes 8 verse 11. Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of man is fully set in them to do evil. What's being said here? Evil is committed and then nothing happens. And so then that's misinterpreted.

That It doesn't matter or nobody cares or nobody knows. That's the last thing you want your patience to be translated into. I'm going to be patient. I'm going to let this one go. And that gets turned into mom and dad don't care or mom and dad don't know.

You don't want your patience misinterpreted. Here's two questions coming out of a consideration of this verse. Does God view the rod as the last resort? So I will say this, I did grow up in a home where the rod was really sort of the last result. I was spanked as a child, but it was only the last resort.

Is that consistent with this verse? No, it really is not consistent with this verse. And I would encourage you not to think of it that way. It's actually to keep you from getting downstream to what would be considered the last resort. It's to nip it in the bud, to head it off at the past.

So does God view the rod as the last resort? No, he does not. He says if you spare it, if you withhold it, that it's actually an expression of hatred towards your child, whether you think of it that way or not that's what it really is. The second question what does God think of counting to three? God is not against counting God is against counting to three in child training.

And you know what I'm talking about. One, two, two and a half, two and three quarters, two and seven eighths, okay? That is not the kind of parenting that we're to be doing. We're to speak and expect. Our children will come up to our expectations.

When we set the pace in parenting, our children will come up to our expectation. And you've just set the expectation. When you count to 2 and 7 eighths, you've just set the expectations that they don't have to obey when it's 1, and they don't have to obey when it's two and three quarters, they have to obey at two and seven eighths. You just set the expectation. You did set the pace.

And you can expect to be obeyed sometimes at two and seven eighths. So reset that. God doesn't want us counting to three, I don't believe. You reset that and expect to be obeyed at one. And one is not when you start counting but when you say what you expect to happen.

Next, Number two, Proverbs 22 verse 15. Proverbs 22 verse 15. Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child. The rod of correction will drive it far from him. Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child.

The rod of correction will drive it far from him. It's easy to translate this in your brain as somebody has to do something about this silliness. Got all this silliness bound up in the heart of my child and it needs to be confronted and driven out with the rod. No, this is not what the Proverbs is teaching. In Proverbs, foolishness is not silliness.

Silliness is not the synonym for foolishness. In Proverbs, foolishness is moral deficiency. It's wickedness. And it's not an age problem, it's a human problem. In other words, well, foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but it's not bound up in the heart of an adult, so you can just let them grow out of it.

No, no, no, it's not an age problem, it's a human problem that must be dealt with early. That's why it says it's bound up in the heart of a child. Use the rod when they're a child. Not that they'll grow out of it, but that the time to deal with it is early. The earlier the better.

That is when you deal with it. This is about depravity, the fallen human nature that is part and parcel with being a human being. Listen to what Matthew Henry says. Every child of ours is a child of Adam, and therefore has that foolishness bound up in his heart, which calls for the rod. So it is universal, it has to do with our nature, and you can find the roots of it in Genesis chapter 3 when Adam and Eve plunged our whole race into rebellion against God and our natures became warped and twisted and inclined towards things that weren't right.

That's the foolishness that's bound up in the heart of the child. And they will not grow out of it. But there is a time to address it when there's a tenderness of heart that will be lost over the practice of sin over time. Listen to Proverbs 19 18. I view Proverbs 19 18 as really a companion verse that helps us understand this verse.

Proverbs 19 18 says, Chasing your son while there is hope, and do not set your heart on his destruction. Chasing your son while there is hope, before there is the hardening of sin that makes it harder to address this ingrained problem that is part of our nature Chasing your son while there is hope. In other words, if you wait and let sin become a pattern and let the hardening process take place, then you then you get to a point where in a sense you are beyond hope. God gives authorities to constrain evil. He gives the civil authority, the sword, to constrain evil.

He gives the church the keys to constrain evil. He gives the family the rod to constrain evil. It's worth mentioning that the Hebrew word here translated child is an infant or youth up to 20 years old. So I'm not here to make an argument that you should spank your 20-year-old, but I am here to say that the word that's used here is more than a little child that you might think. If you just use the English word child, it's not a bad translation, but it doesn't have sort of the breadth or the age, the extended age range that you would find in the Hebrew word that's being translated.

A final consideration on this verse, earlier in the chapter, so earlier in Proverbs 22, we have this famous verse, Proverbs 22 verse 6, train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it. This is part of that picture in training up a child. Now, the application of the rod, of course, is narrower of that. It's a little subset of all that is encompassed in training up a child, but it is a part of that picture in which we do everything across the broad spectrum in order to ingrain good patterns that will last a lifetime in the lives of our children. It is absolutely a part of that picture.

Okay, turn over a page in your Bible to Proverbs 23. This is number three. Number three is Proverbs 23 verses 13 and 14. Proverbs 23 13 and 14. Do not withhold correction from a child.

For if you beat him with a rod he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod and deliver his soul from hell." The Hebrew word that is translated beat here in New King James version has, this is an understatement of the year, has a lot of baggage, has a lot of baggage associated with it. And it causes me to recoil. Does that cause you to recoil? I recoil too.

That's probably why the NASB and the ESV renders it strike instead. And I like it not for necessarily translational purposes, but because strike has so much less of the baggage than the word beat does, and they're both responsible translation. It really is just using the rod. So don't think of beating a child with all the baggage that comes with that in our context. Just think of strike or just using the rod.

This has to do with your main area of concern. What do you care the most about? You care the most about their body? Oh, their poor, sensitive little heinie. I dare not.

I care most about no pain in their life. You know no parent worth his or her salt thinks that way, can afford to think that way, does think that way. So we're not just concerned with that. We're concerned about their bodies and pain thresholds. We're not blind to that or insensitive to that but we're more concerned with their soul.

That should be and is our main concern. Listen again to Matthew Henry speaking of the application of the rod, so this is his specific commentary on this verse. He says, when it, so he's talking about the rod, when it is given with wisdom, designed for good, accompanied with prayer, and blessed by God, it may prove a happy means of preventing his utter destruction and delivering his soul from hell. Our great care must be about our children's souls." And to that we would say, amen, our great care must be about our children's souls. But I love the way he frames this.

So the broader culture says that any application of the rod is abusive and is child abuse, but they're not thinking of it within this framework. The Christian thinks of the application of the rod within this framework listen again to how he frames it given with wisdom that doesn't sound like an abusive beating to me given with wisdom designed for good that doesn't sound like an abusive beating accompanied with prayer who in their right mind who could accompany an abusive beating with prayer and blessed by God Oh God please come and bless my child abuse no no Christians have a different framework for the rod. It actually is an expression of love and not of hatred. It is an expression of love and not abuse. It is the opposite of abuse.

Given with wisdom, designed for good, accompanied with prayer, blessed of God. And he calls that a happy means. This is it. The rod is a means. It is a pathway.

It is a tool to a greater end and that is a care for the souls of our children. This is not simply about behavior modification. This is about the souls of our children. This is about getting to their hearts ultimately. Number four, Proverbs 29.

Proverbs 29 verse 15. The rod and rebuke give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother. It's short enough to read again. The rod and rebuke give wisdom but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother. In this verse two things are joined together.

The rod and rebuke. Not the rod neglecting rebuke. That's a mistake. That's a huge mistake. Just nothing but the rod.

Nothing but the rod. Over and over. Nothing but the rod. No talking, no rebuke, no verbal contradiction to the behavior, and not rebuke, neglecting the rod. Talk, talk, talk, but nothing else.

Only rebuke. In fact, in First Samuel 2 and 3, Eli is shown to be a father who's nothing but rebuke. He said, no my sons. Now I've heard the reports, no my sons, but he never goes further than that is his whole household is condemned for it this addresses the hands off just let them bloom approach to parenting ask gardeners about just let it bloom you just plant the seeds you back off you don't do anything you just let it bloom That is a recipe for weeds and nothing but weeds. Gardeners don't garden that way.

Just let them bloom. The results of that are so predictable and you can look around your neighborhood. If you live in a neighborhood, you can look around your neighborhood and find out what you get with just let them bloom parenting. It is such a disservice to children. Proverbs tells us what the result will be an ashamed mother, an embarrassed mother.

Why mother, right? Dad's chief disciplinarian, dad's head of the household, then why is it that this child left to himself brings shame to his mother? Well, I'm going to speculate the verse doesn't tell you why God points to the mother, but I have a couple of, I think, educated guesses. I'll try them out on you. Mothers spend most of their time on caring for the children and so they have tremendous influence over these children and mothers are often very tender-hearted.

If you said, on balance, not all men are one way, not all women are one way, but on balance, who's more tender-hearted, dad or mom? Hello? Hello? Mom? Yeah, That's a question that doesn't need to be, that is a rhetorical question because the answer is so obvious.

Often, mother's hearts are so tender-hearted that They don't confront wrong behavior, bad behavior, dishonoring behavior when they should because they're tenderhearted. And verses like this, I believe, are designed to stiffen their backbone, to do what they ought to do even though they would have a tendency towards mercy and to draw back from what God is calling for. And so Proverbs is warning you, Mom, if you don't want to end ashamed of the product of your hours and days and weeks and months and years and at the end be ashamed of it all that this is a tool in your toolbox that you cannot afford to just leave in the toolbox untouched. Two verses later, so still in Proverbs 29 but verse 17, two verses later, we read, correct your son and he will give you rest. Yes, he will give delight to your soul.

So you're really given the polar opposites. Do you want to be ashamed of this son or do you want a son who's a delight to your soul? Well, you're having a tremendous influence on what the outcome will be. Okay, so That is major heading number one, which was what? Review what the Bible says about the rod from Proverbs.

The second major heading is to put the rod within a theological framework. By a theological framework, I mean a God-centered framework as opposed to a man-centered framework. A man-centered framework for corporal punishment is simply behavior modification. That's bad behavior, it needs to be good behavior, and so we're spanking. Now it's not that there's no legitimacy to that, it's that that can't be the core of this.

That is something that is secondary and what is core is the relationship of my children to God and how to have an impact on that. Galatians chapter 3 teaches us that the law is a tutor to bring us to Christ. The law is not a tutor to make us self-righteous. Are you with me? You with me here?

The law is not a tutor to teach us how to be righteous in and of ourselves. It does tell us about righteousness, but its purpose isn't to perfect us and to give us life through law keeping. It's to actually convince us in our failure to keep the law that we have no hope in ourselves and we need to run to Christ for hope. That is the purpose of the law to the unbeliever. I believe the purpose of the law to the believer becomes a different thing because condemnation is not Before us but for the unbeliever the law is a tutor to bring us to Christ Malachi 2 I touched on it earlier Malachi 2 tells us why God brings a man together with a woman into marriage because he desires godly offspring.

This is about playing our role in that. Does it overthrow the doctrine of election? No, of course not. Does it mean that we can, if we do just the right thing at just the right time and in just the right way that we're guaranteed an outcome? No, but God does work through means and he establishes his means in the scripture.

He tells us what to do in the Bible and we have every reason to believe that he'll be gracious to us as we try to obey his word. Turn with me to Hebrews 12. Hebrews 12. A great New Testament text about discipline. Hebrews 12, I'll read 5 through 11.

Hebrews 12, starting in verse 5. And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons. My son, Do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by him. For whom the Lord loves, he chastens and scourges every son whom he receives. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons.

For what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our prophet, that we may be partakers of His holiness.

Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful. Nevertheless, afterwards it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. We scourge our sons and daughters because God scourges His sons and daughters. Not because He doesn't love them, but precisely because He does love them. He doesn't do it to discourage them.

He does it to train them so that they can eat the peaceable fruit of righteousness. They can share in the peaceable fruit of righteousness. When we discipline, we're acting like God does towards the children that that He loves. Human parents should discipline because our Heavenly Father disciplines. We do it for the same reason.

God has good and redemptive and heart-touching purposes for these disciplines that he brings into our lives. He's actually doing more in our lives than just behavior modification. He's teaching us to love him and to walk with him and he's teaching us there's something wrong with us and that we need to go to him to have these things fixed, be made alive spiritually. Number three, Let me provide some practical thoughts on the application of the rod. I'm going to give you nine fast, hopefully fast, nine practical thoughts.

Number one. Anger must not be the centerpiece of your use of the rod. You don't apply the rod because you're mad. You might be mad, but you don't do it because you're mad. Ephesians 4 26, be angry and do not sin.

It's possible that your children do things that ought to make you angry because righteousness is good and wickedness isn't good. But anger must never be the centerpiece of it. I described in teaching on this to our church one time, I described how I tried to go about application of the rod in my own home in a cheerful way. Does that sound strange to you? We have a man in our congregation who has nicknamed me Chasen instead of Jason.

Chasen the happy spanker. Okay, well I embrace the nickname. I am chasing the happy spanker. I wanted my kids to know that it wasn't because that they had offended me and I was doing it because I was just at my wits end and I was sick and tired of it and I wasn't taking it anymore so I spanked them. I wanted to be cheerful enough, if I could be, beforehand and cheerful enough, if I could be, afterwards, probably in the middle, it was a fearful experience.

But I didn't want to start mad or end mad. I wanted them to understand that I was simply on duty. Simply on duty. God has called me to certain things as a husband and as a father and they're required of me and I'm cheerfully willing to obey God in them so here we go. It's not because I'm mad.

And it's not that I'm going to stay mad. It's that God has given me obligations towards you, and I'm delighted to carry them out. Because God is good, and his ways are right. I think we should engage this in that sense, not anger as a centerpiece, but you can be cheerful before and you can be cheerful after. I think the occasion itself requires a level of intensity that probably cheerful wouldn't be the right way to describe it.

Fair enough. Number two, the rod is just one slice of the instruction and correction pie. So there's a whole pie of instruction and correction, and the rod is a slice of it. And honestly, in my experience, not a particularly dominant slice of it either, not a particularly large slice of it. You have to balance it with the other kinds of instruction and with affection.

And in my experience, in the times where you need to ramp up the application of the rod, we call it boot camp at the dome home. Like times where like you got to make sure you are deadly consistent, like you can't have any consistency because of what you're up against in the behavior of your children. Like you got to get serious and you got to get serious now and you can't be letting things go. We call it boot camp. When we're headed into boot camp, you better ramp up affection on the other side too.

You better extend bedtime. Read more stories at bedtime. Snuggle more you know while in the evening times. You need to offset the increased discipline with increased affection so they don't misinterpret it as if you don't love them and it's an expression of a waning affection for them. The rod is just one slice of the instruction and correction pie and if you find it becoming this dumb, it becomes the pie, it's the pie, like you're off track, you have to reset and offset.

Number three, honoring parents is one of the Ten Commandments. It's the Fifth Commandment. It's a whole commandment. There's only ten of them. That is such a small number.

I mean, the other commandments, in my view, are part of the Ten Commandments. The other ones sort of fit in these ten categories given to us by the Ten Commandments. But they're the big ten, and honoring parents is one of those. And it is a parent's obligation to secure that honor. You should think of it as your job as a parent to secure that honor.

Thank you for teaching me that, Scott, so many years ago. It's invaluable. It puts your mind right about your job, okay? The fifth commandment isn't just for my children, it also pertains to me because honoring me, it does not come naturally to them, so I have to go secure it. I have a role to play in this.

It's a big commandment and it's with a promise of blessing. It's a parent's job to secure it. When our children are dishonoring us, we should view that as a requirement for us to engage and get to work. It is not simply a failure of our children. We should feel a reflection of that and acknowledge, hey, there's probably some of me in there too.

I need to get to work. Number four, use the rod for the three disses. Janet and I were taught this by Edgar and Xenia Lee Wheeler. They joined our small group of young marrieds. We were just like you guys.

And they had retired from 50 years in the ministry at that point and had raised 11 children. And so we couldn't get enough of Edgar and Zinnia Lee Wheeler and they taught us that they spanked for the three disses and it's so helpful because everyone, all parents, especially young parents, are trying to figure out should I spank for this or should I not spank for this? Okay, so this was their filter and I think it's a great filter. A dishonesty? Apply the rod for lying.

Disobedience? I told you not to do that, but you did it anyway. Disrespect. That's a great filter. Does it catch everything?

I don't know. It's a great filter. Start there. At least inject that into your thinking. Spank for the three disses.

Dishonesty, disobedience, disrespect. Number five. Be careful of concluding, it's not working. I keep spanking and it's multiple times a day and it's been every day this month and I'm not seeing any change. It's not working.

Okay, You're not allowed to say that. Don't allow yourself to say that. You can say this. Okay, I'll make a concession. You can say this.

It's not working yet. It's not working yet. That is true. There are periods of time where it's not working yet. It's not magic.

It is a means that God has given us, but it's not magical and it doesn't guarantee that after three consistent days the fight is over. It might be three consistent weeks, it might be three consistent months, but are we prepared to trust God's Word? Yes, we are. We're prepared to trust God's Word and say it's not working yet, but let God be true in every man a liar. Number six, if you say you're going to spank, spank.

Or at least explain that you're purposefully giving grace so they don't misinterpret your giving grace because you didn't say this is grace. You ought to have it but I'm going to be gracious towards you now so they don't misinterpret it as you don't care or you haven't noticed or it doesn't matter. If you say you're going to, then do. And let that be overwhelmingly true. Is there a place for giving grace?

I surely hope so. Seven. Make clear lines, then enforce them with consistency. This is where we get in trouble. This is so practical.

I'm giving you gold here. It's towards the end. I hope you haven't zoned out because this is so helpful and important. And this is learned over a long period of time and we did this wrong you know, until we learned it and even after we learned it, make clear lines but don't make too many of them. Decide what matters and then don't over-regulate.

You're setting yourself up for failure by over-regulating because then you're crossing swords multiple times per hour about stuff you don't really care that much about but now you're forced to care about it because you said you did. So be careful, don't over-reg it, but make those lines clear and then enforce them with consistency. So here's an example. Okay, sibling squabbling. You hear it escalating from the other room and that's how it sounds.

It starts deep and then it goes a little louder and a little higher all the way. And you walk by, how do you even sort that out? You come into the room and you don't know who did what and now you're supposed to get to the bottom of this to find out who to blame or blame both and it's all very confusing okay so so how do you get beyond that I'm I'm gonna give you some gold here okay this this is a good one okay make it your policy ask your sibling nicely. Ask your brother or sister nicely. And then if you need me, come and get me for help.

Okay, That is a clear line. And no matter what, when you walk past the room and it's escalating, both of them have gone over the clear line. Both of them are way past the clear line because you said, ask them nicely and then if you need help come get me. And the fact that it is escalating means that they're both to blame and both way over the line. And then you can enforce that.

You can't get to the bottom of what happened in that room. But you can know that you gave them a clear line and they crossed it. So try to find clear lines like that so that you're not put in the position of mind reading or recreating history these things are impossible you cannot mind read you cannot recreate history you're probably not going to be told the truth about history ok So you have to draw these lines that don't depend on any of that. Alright, number eight. How blank is too blank?

How many is too many? How soft is too soft? How hard is too hard? How young is too young? How old is too old?

I'm going to give you my favorite pastoral answer. The text does not say. The text doesn't say. I'm going to give you a chapter or verse to answer any of those to tell you how many, how soft, how hard, how young, how old the text doesn't say. So you have to decide, you have to calibrate your mind, your thoughts to the word of God and try to be wise about these things.

I'm going to give you mine, okay? Reject them all if you want. I can't tag them to a chapter or a verse. How many? 10 was the line for me.

10, 10, 10, 1, 2, 3, up to 10. I would never go over 10. Is that subjective? You better believe it is. That was my line.

How soft? How hard? How soft, how hard. If you drove me to apply the rod, I wasn't there to joke around. And I did think it should hurt.

And I didn't think that was abusive. And I did think it was required of me. I'm not aware that I ever left a mark. How young? How young?

You know, as soon as you know that they know that they're contradicting you and this is really young. I think I've heard Deborah say it. Hey, as soon as they can arch their back on the changing table, infuriate you for a cold wipe, okay, or a diaper change, then you're already in the territory. Does that mean you should be spanking infants hard? I don't think that means that, and I don't think that's required at that stage.

But to say that's too early when you know that they know what you're requiring of them and they're counteracting that with all their might, you're already, you're in the territory, in my view. That's not too young. How old is too old? I've not run into this being a big issue in our home. But I've never taken it off the table.

Never taken it off the table. Why would you take it off the table? Yeah. Now, I have an almost 27-year-old in my home. She's never getting spanked again.

She's 30 feet that way. Okay, so I just took it off the table for the first time. You have been here and witnessed history. Yeah, I think that's all I'll say about that. I've never taken it off the table.

All right, number nine. This one should encourage you a lot. By spanking consistently and as often as needed, and let me just back up and apply more biblical language. By applying the rod consistently and as often as needed, you create a family culture where it is rarely needed. You can apply the rod out of business.

You can. I know that. I haven't applied the rod in so long. Now my youngest is almost 15. And I haven't said I'm not willing to.

I'm just saying it hasn't been necessary in years, in a long time because we won the victory when they were smaller by God's grace. By God's grace. And you should expect that over time, that you can win the victory and by applying the rod consistently and as often as it's needed, you can create a family culture where it's rarely needed or never needed. In July 2013 at the History of America Conference, Paul J. Lee was giving a lecture or a message on Puritan parenting and he said this quote, the pilgrim church was a holy commonwealth.

They train their children by voice obedience in a soft voice on the first command. Parents were put in stocks if children disobeyed in public. So you had not only a family expectation but you had a cultural expectation that children were to be taught to obeyed and if your children didn't obey then you went in the stocks not necessarily lobbying for that advocating for that but that's what they did but but listen again to their expectation They train their children by voice obedience. They weren't smacking their kids around. Now it doesn't say they didn't apply the rod, but hey, the expectation was, I don't have to hit you to get you to do it.

I tell you to do it. Okay, in a soft voice, okay, so not screaming instructions at their kids, but giving directions in a soft voice to their kids on the first command. They weren't counting to two and seven eights. Voice obedience and a soft voice on the first command, that should be your target. That should be your target.

It should be a problem when your children are off target and you should address it. If they're making you raise your voice, if voice commands aren't enough, if you have to repeat it multiple times, then you're off target and you have to take action to get back on target so that the reasonable expectation of your children is voice command, soft voice, first command. And you can get there. You can get there. They will meet your expectations if you're consistent.

And you do it with love. Your children can tell. They know. They know. They know the heart behind it all.

So be careful. But the flip side of that is when your heart is a heart of love and tenderness towards your children, they get that. And it's an asset. And it makes all of your discipline easier for them because they know. It's not because you're mad or because you don't like them.

It's actually because you love them and you're doing what God has given you to do. Let's pray. God, for those of us who have children, we do feel the weight of it and we do a desire to be faithful in it and we are very sorry for all that hasn't been worthy of you. Please forgive us. Please help us And help us to trust your word.

I thank you for That you haven't left us without instructions, but you have given us an abundant of instructions both for the application of the rod and these other Areas that are about the training of children and that Your Word is the wisest book ever written on child training. And I pray that we would love every word of it and obey it and defend it with joy. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.