Ideally each believer will find a good church home where they can serve and be served in peace and sweet fellowship with their brothers and sisters in Christ. However, this is a fallen world and this ideal is often not realized. Sometimes it becomes necessary for a believer to consider leaving and eventually actually leave a church. When this happens, above all God must be honored and his church protected from unnecessary division and bitterness.

Good morning. Are we awake? It's good to be with you this morning. You know, in fact, I'd like to take just a minute if you'd permit me to just sort of share my heart with you about how blessed and excited I am to be with you this morning, to be a part of what the Lord is doing in this work that we're talking about these two days. You know, there are so many things that make it a blessing to be here.

The fellowship, the friendship, and those who are just laboring for the Lord in this area, the hearts of the folks that I've gotten to know. But you know the real reason that it is exciting for me to be here is because we are here together talking about the most important thing that is going on in the world. That's a pretty strong statement, and I don't make it lightly, but it's a true statement Because what we are talking about together these two days has to do with Christ and his church. It has to do with the most important thing going on in this world, the Church of God. Why is it that we have not seen five Hurricane Katrina's hit every major U.S.

City over the last, I don't know how many years. We have all been so affected by what's happened to our neighbors recently. Why haven't we seen such catastrophe far more often in a far more reaching application? Let's talk about something that may hit even a little closer to home. None of us have failed to be affected by 9-11 and what happened there.

None of us would deny that there are tens of thousands of folks actively working to bring any harm they possibly can to this country. Maybe it's millions. Certainly there are millions who absolutely hate this country and who would like nothing more than to see horrific catastrophe, devastating tragedy. Why have we not seen a suitcase nuke explode in a major city in this country? It's not because there aren't those who would do it if they could.

It's not because the technology is not available. It's not because we're so smart. And our security and intelligence is so airtight. It's not because our borders are so secure. Thousands of trucks come across every day from Mexico.

Nobody having any idea what's in them. It's not because our ports are so secure. We check the tiniest percentage of huge shipping containers coming into this country containing we don't know what. Why is it that it hasn't happened, brothers and sisters? It is because of the restraining hand of God.

Period. End of discussion. That is the only reason that we've not seen devastation from multiple Katrina's. That is the only reason we have not seen suitcase nukes exploding in major cities in this country. And we can't presume on God to continue to restrain such things in a nation that is crying out for His judgment, in a nation that is murdering innocent babes in the womb by the millions and giving it almost no thought, in a nation where innocent blood cries out from the ground, we cannot presume upon the restraining hand of God indefinitely.

And why does God withhold his judgment? Brothers and sisters, for the sake of a faithful remnant. For the sake of ten, he would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah. God's economy and what He does with His people has a whole lot less to do with vocal, powerful, influential majorities and a whole lot more to do with faithful little remnants. I believe with all my heart that the work that we are about and the things that we are talking about these two days have everything to do with a faithful remnant.

And whether this country understands how it should appreciate those efforts or not, whether this country understands the restraining hand of God for the sake of a remnant, we have to understand it. And we have to be motivated by it. And we have to realize that as small and as isolated and as lonely as we may feel sometimes. We are about the most important work going on in the world. We're about God's church, about the faithfulness of his bride.

What we are doing here together is incredibly important and I could not be more blessed to be involved in it. You know we've talked about what's going on in our nation. We've talked about it and we can't deny that we are a nation deserving of judgment. Can't deny it. You know the worst thing about what's going on in this country right now?

It's not the wicked behaving wickedly. It's the complicity of the church in that wickedness. The church has got to wake up, and I believe that what we're about here today has to do with the church waking up and the faithfulness of a remnant. And I think it gives us hope, and I am excited. I am overjoyed to be a part of it.

Brothers and sisters, judgment begins in the house of God. And God is merciful for the sake of a remnant. And so what we are doing has far more reaching impact and effect than a little family integrated church and another little assembly here and one there. It's the most important thing going on in the world. And we need to understand our duty in that regard.

And we need to understand how important what the Lord is doing in what I pray history will look back upon and describe as a reformation in the church of God. Judgment begins in the house of God and the church must be a faithful bride and we must, as Vody told us yesterday, get our houses in order. Well, if we are going to do that, we must begin well. We must understand our duties as the church. We must stay the course.

We must get off to a good beginning, and that's where so many of us are today. Some of us are a few years in, some of us haven't begun yet, some of us are appealing in existing churches, some of us are just starting new churches. And If this is to be more than a movement, a one-shot wonder, something which burns brightly and flames out in the life of the church, If this is to endure, we must do our duty faithfully. We must remember that God blesses his methods. We must respect and honor those.

We have to get off to the right start as a movement, as new churches, as an act that blesses this nation. We need to understand our duty and we need to stay the course. And we need to succeed. We need to succeed for the sake of our children and our grandchildren and our great-grandchildren. Our vision is multi-generational.

We need to be involved in a work that endures. And here's where a problem sometimes arises. It is very difficult for a work to begin well and endure. It's very difficult to enjoy a blessed new beginning when that new beginning flows out of a dishonorable and miserable ending somewhere else. When we don't leave well in churches which we may well be compelled to leave.

It is difficult to begin well in this incredibly important new work in which we are involved. What can we expect in this work if we begin perfectly? What can we expect if we are today moving forward with a new work, a new church, and we have things in place, and we have left completely honorably the jurisdiction in which we were previously and we are beginning a new work today afresh as well as we can begin it. Should we expect it to go smoothly and for it to be easy. No, I see you shaking your heads and you're right.

No, what challenges can a new work like this, a new church expect to face? Well, we've talked about what brought us together, haven't we? And a new church, a brand new family integrated church enjoys incredible blessing from this in the early stages. There is a season of unity and bliss almost as this work begins and understandably so. We're there because of what unites us and we are rejoicing because we're worshipping together, our families are together, we are with believers who are like-minded, we are no longer ostracized, we are rejoicing.

Our families are worshipping together. The young fellow who Vody described as not knowing, come here from Sikkim, doesn't have our children anymore. They're with us. And we're rejoicing. And it's blessed.

But that does not last indefinitely. We enjoy that bliss and euphoria for a time, and any man who started a church, I think would testify to exactly these things happening throughout the life of a church. I know it's been our experience in our fellowship and I've talked to brothers across the country who've described the exact same things. And that period, that season of bliss and unity because of what unites doesn't last forever. And we begin to look around and all of a sudden we notice that there are some things that aren't quite so perfectly blissful.

This brother over here has some strange idea of music that I'm not sure I agree with. And that sister's not dressed modestly. And this fellow's got the most depressing view of eschatology I've ever heard in my life. And he keeps telling me things are just gonna get worse and worse and worse. And this fellow's dispensational.

And he's not reformed in his thinking. And this fellow's an Armenian, and he acts like God is powerless. And all of a sudden, that little season of bliss is beginning to see some blips on the radar. And there are some things to be concerned about. And those concerns legitimately arise because we care about the faithfulness of the bride.

And so we can't just ignore those things and sweep them aside and pretend like they're not happening. So what do we do? Do we behave immaturely and tear each other apart and collapse after that little brief season of bliss? Well, You know how important we talked about proper leadership being in this equation yesterday? Do you see how important it is when these things begin to start?

That you have mature, qualified leadership. And that if you are in a provisional time where you don't have elders, that every man and every woman behave in a mature, Christian, charitable, kind, understanding, patient, loving manner. We don't want to be a one-shot wonder that flames out. And so we've got to be mature if we're going to hope to endure and if we're going to get through this time of transition. But difficulties like this shouldn't discourage us and shipwreck us as a church.

In fact, how does God build our faith? By trials, by difficulties, by things exactly like this. And you know what happens with the church that faithfully stays the course and behaves maturely and is well led when these differences begin to arise? They work through them. You know what happens when church members understand covenant responsibilities within a church family and they are committed to that church family and difficulties arise, we work through them.

And certainly, You may have the first church split the first week after you meet. It could happen. It could happen that fast. And there are going to be folks who leave. And there may be folks who legitimately really should leave and need to leave and who didn't understand the vision of what was going on and need to seek to worship elsewhere.

And those things will be a little painful and they seem like a rejection of your church and your family and what you stand for. But you know what those processes give us? They hurt. They make us bleed together just a little bit. And you know what?

That is the most blessed thing that we could ever experience. I am so grateful for the blood I've shed with my brother John Latham, with my brother Scott Brown, with my brother Doug Phillips. I have no friends like the friends that I have bled with. And I could go on down that list. And These difficulties in the church are opportunities for maturity and maturing in the church.

And that's exactly what should happen. We work through them appropriately. We handle them maturely. We do have some hurts. We do feel some rejection.

Perhaps there's dissension. You know, We're promised that there are going to be wolves that come in and seek to attack the church. Why does God allow that to happen? To build our faith, to let us bleed together, to draw us closer to each other, to mature us. So those things are going to happen.

And remember, this is with the church that starts ideally. This is with one that doesn't take off with a bunch of excess yucky baggage because of how they left their previous assembly. These things are just about guaranteed to happen. And they're challenging, but they're maturing, and they're helpful, and they're faith building, and they're blessed. And so we want to be a part of a work that endures.

We must be. We must be for so many reasons and it calls for maturity. Now we can talk more about these things that happen in the life of a new church. One thing that I'd also like to mention is that you have to understand that there are priorities, that all things are important, but some things just aren't critical right now. And you've got to work through things with maturity, understanding the critical things, understanding that other things are important and that they will need attention, but that they just may not get it right this minute.

There are challenges and that's a part of maturity. If you have concerns, if you're part of a work like this, be mature, be patient, be loving, be kind, be respectful, be honoring, submit to others, be mature, be a part of a work that will endure and not one that's likely to flame out. What does all this have to do with how we leave a church and if we leave a church and when it is appropriate to leave a church? Well I hope you see it. I hope you see how difficult it is to have a wonderful new beginning that flows out of a dishonoring, dishonorable, divisive, inappropriate ending.

And that's a major problem for new churches because so often they begin out of groups of folks who have left their previous authority dishonorably. Left without good reason or left perhaps with very good reason and done it entirely the wrong way. And I don't want that to characterize what we're about. If we're going to get off to a good start, it requires a good ending. So let's talk just a little bit about how to conclude things well if we're in a fellowship that is not going to go in a direction which in good conscience we can continue to be a part of or which we need to leave for any of a number of other reasons which we'll talk about here in just a minute.

Now the first thing that considering if, when, and how we are to leave a church calls out for us to think about is can we ever leave a church? Is it legitimate ever to leave a church? You know, there are some pastors out there who, it seems to me would answer this question, no. Unless I tell you you can go, you can't go. There are elders who are dictatorial in that and who would say, you know, I think you're wrong in your matter of conscience or in your evaluation of our application.

And not only that, you can't leave. And if you do leave, I'm going to hound you. And I'm going to muddy the waters in your relationships to come. There are pastors that handle these things wrong, but I don't think that's the norm. I think normally church shepherds, when approached appropriately, are very open for an honorable disillusion of a church relationship.

And there's a lot that we can't control in that, especially if we are the sheep, if we are members of the church. And so what we need to concern ourselves with are the things that depend on us. And we need to be honorable so much as anything depends on us regardless of the behavior of others in that equation. That is maturity. That is the kind of attitude and heart that will result in enduring Christian communities, local bodies that make it through the tough times.

So to those who would say there's never an appropriate time to leave, I would just respectfully disagree. I don't think the scripture supports that. I think clearly there are times when it is appropriate to leave an assembly. What if the assembly no longer exists? If you can't leave, what do you do?

What if it's just disestablished? There's one pretty iron clad, excellent reason to be able to leave. It may seem so obvious we don't even think about it, but it is a reason. And yet what are the biblical reasons for leaving when those things may become necessary? Well, I think we would all agree that overt apostasy is a very good reason to leave a church.

If a church has departed from the doctrines of grace, departed from Jesus Christ, it's time to leave. And clearly, clearly, Scripture supports that overt apostasy is a reason for leaving a fellowship. In fact, I think it compels us to leave a fellowship. Now, that doesn't answer the question of when, and we'll talk about that in just a second. But I think that is the first and most obvious reason for leaving.

There's some others that are just more practical. What if a man's work takes him to a new area in the country? Clearly, that's got to be a biblical and just reason for establishing yourself in another local fellowship. You must do that. What if a young woman marries a young man and one family is in one side of the country and one family is in the other?

Well, somebody is going to have to be a part of another assembly. It's a valid reason for leaving. A woman joining herself to her husband and going to worship in the assembly which he is a spiritual leader of that home would direct that their family be a part of. An excellent and legitimate reason for leaving. But let's talk about a couple of the things that can be more complicated in this equation.

We've talked some about doctrinal errors. There is authority in the church, but that authority does not extend to commanding the sheep to disobey the Lord. Period. It does not supersede his authority. It is delegated authority.

Just like a parent can't rightfully command their children to disobey the Lord, nor can a pastor or elder rightfully command the flock to disobey the Lord. If that's going on, valid and legitimate reason to leave. What about matters of conscience? What about practice? What about the things that really hit at the heart of what we're talking about here today?

Brothers and sisters, I think the application is the same. If the practice of the church causes a family to have to disobey the Lord in their view, now, They may not be right about that and they need to be open to discussing that and they need to be certain of where they are in that position, but if that is the case, I think that is a legitimate and proper and scriptural reason for leaving. If being a part of your local church is causing you to shepherd your family poorly and to fail to protect your children and to expose them to horrific influences and is forcing you to abdicate your role as the spiritual leader of your family, as the discipler of your children and your wife. If the practice of the church is splitting and splintering your family and doing it harm, and it violates your conscience because it violates the clear direction of scripture, that is in my view a perfectly legitimate reason for leaving. If that is the case, it begs the next question.

If we have a legitimate reason to leave, how should we do so? We've talked about it a little bit already. We do so honorably, so much as it depends on us. We do so patiently. We do so with an understanding of our covenant obligations to the church family in which we belong.

We do so with proper respect to the authority of the leadership of that church. The question is not just if we should leave, the next question is how. And brothers and sisters, in my experience, if one does not purpose to leave honorably, it doesn't normally happen. When we just default, one of any number of scenarios often occurs in leaving a church, the disappearing act. Somebody may just be there one day and gone the next.

And some folks may think, wow, this is really the most charitable way for me to just quietly disappear is the best thing that I can do. As an elder, let me tell you that that is disruptive, and that is divisive, and that is confusing, and that is hurtful to the body. The disappearing act is not the honorable way to leave. Others may have a problem and decide, you know, I'm going to build a coalition and I'm going to get an influential group together and we're going to change what's going on here or we're going to take over. And we're going to leave bodies in the wake of what we do if it's necessary.

I would suggest to you that that is not an honorable way to handle differences in a church or to leave. What is the honorable way to leave? How do we respect our covenant obligations and honor those things? I don't believe that we can leave the assembly where we are without making a heartfelt appeal for change in the areas that we consider destructive to the families there. We are covenant members of that assembly.

That involves obligations that are just beyond the scope of this talk, but they are important. If we love those with whom we worship, we can't just abandon them when they're in harmful circumstances. So how do we seek to appeal and affect change in a situation like that? Well, it's obvious. You respectfully approach the leadership with the right heart and the right attitude.

And you express your concerns respectfully, honorably, kindly, patiently. How do you go into that? You go into it prepared to defend what you believe. You go into that knowing what you believe and why you believe it. Because there are going to be questions that come up and there is one authority that ought to be respected and We need to go in prepared to defend and explain what it is that we believe and why we believe it in the course of such an appeal.

We need to make a genuine, honest, real effort to do such a thing. I have some perspective on this experience. I'd like to just share a word of testimony and then I'd like to yield some time to my brother, John Latham, so that he can share some of his experiences from a different perspective in this situation. But I'll just tell you about a little experience I had in exactly the things that we're talking about today. I was a part of a fellowship that I loved.

And I think it was important for me that that was the case in this scenario. This fellowship my grandparents had helped to begin. My father had been a deacon there for 40 plus years. I had been born while my family attended that church. My father was born while his family attended that church.

We had roots, I mean deep roots in this little church and we loved it. We still do. We love that assembly. There was no way I could just disappear. There was no way that I could seek to tear it apart.

There was no way I could do something that would be harmful to that little assembly and thank the Lord for those who had gone before and who talked about these things and who I could look to for direction in this situation that I found myself in. And so I sought honorably to seek change. And I'll tell you, I didn't expect what happened. I expected a polite audience with the new pastor of this church who I hardly knew. And I expected to set some things out, perhaps plant some seeds, perhaps give him some things to talk about, perhaps be able to defend what I believed from scripture, and then I expected to be politely allowed to go my way and seek a different church family.

But what happened is we talked a little bit about yesterday is I was received by a man with a pastor's heart, with a shepherd's heart, with the attitude that an elder ought to have. And I was received graciously and kindly, and I was listened to, and I was given opportunity over the course of a year of getting together time after time after time to talk through what scripture said about the church and how it should function. And I knew this was tough for John whenever I approached him with it. And I knew from my own perspective how tough it was. I don't think I really understood it from his.

In fact, he enlightened me some this week about what that was like for him. But I knew I could understand. Here's a man who has labored in the ministry for many years, who is, this has been his life goal and purpose, this is what he has prepared himself to do from the time he was a young man. And here he is, he is, and as he correctly pointed out, He was in an impossible situation in our church. He was the man who was supposed to have authority and who many perceived as having authority and who was supposed to be in charge and yet he was not in charge.

He was a congregationally led church And so John was in the situation of having the responsibility without the authority to really do anything about it. If you're in a congregationally led church, think through these things. It's not the biblical model. And so that's where John was. And not only was he in that spot, but he was well paid for our little church.

He really was making a good living, had excellent benefits, had a growing family to support and to provide for, was a homeschooling dad whose wife was home, his help me, and this was his means of support. His family had supported and encouraged him in this work. And they were not going to be real excited if he seemed to just lose his mind all of a sudden whenever he had finally achieved what he had achieved. I knew that it was not likely that I was going to receive a warm reception from this man. He hardly knew me.

And let me give you just one little inkling of his side of it that he shared with me this week. We were talking through this earlier this week as we meet weekly to talk about different things and this conference was a topic of conversation. He said, Don, here's a parallel for you. Suppose that I went to a conference and listened to a tape and I came to you and I said, Don, I've got something I want to talk to you about. I know you've been practicing law for 13, 14, 15 years, and I know you've been to law school, but I've been to a conference on how this should really be done, and I've listened to a tape, and I've got it all figured out, and you don't know what you're doing.

That really hit home with me. That's what I did to him. And yet I tried to be gracious and I tried to be kind. And God had prepared his heart. And here was a man who cared more about pleasing God than pleasing man and was willing to sacrifice everything, if that was what it was required, to obey the Lord.

And so I appealed to him respectfully and kindly, trying to understand his situation but not really understanding it because I wasn't in his shoes. And he listened. And we talked, and we talked, and we talked. And we appealed to this little church that I loved so much. And as I described yesterday, It didn't take a real long time in the course of that appeal for it to be clear that the most honoring and the best course of action that we could take would be to start a new work.

We didn't want to divide and tear apart and do harm to the bride of Christ. We wanted to appeal respectfully, and we couldn't just gut the leadership structure that was in place on a whim. And we couldn't just blame everything on the sheep because They had been put in a position of doing the job of the shepherd. There were so many things in place that made it clear that we needed to start another work. But you know with all those things, we were able to make a good ending.

It wasn't without pain, and it wasn't without wrong behavior on the parts of some folks and it wasn't certainly without mistakes on our part. But the great majority of the folks in that little church who I've loved my whole life sent us away with a blessing to start a new work, sent us away wishing us well in the work that we had to do. Now there was some nastiness and some rock throwing, but it came from a small minority. The majority of those folks sent us away with their blessing to start this new work. We were able to end something that was really hard for me to end honorably.

We were able to make a good new start because we had enjoyed an honorable conclusion to the church life that we had experienced previously. And I just can't overemphasize the importance of that as we consider the work that the Lord has given us. We must end things honorably And we must begin new things the right way. I'd like for John just to share for a few minutes his perspective on some of our conversations. And I hope that this will be helpful for you as you think about your elders as you may prepare to go on appeal and what this is like for them.

John, you come. As Donna shared, as we shared yesterday, when he came to appeal to me, I was the senior pastor, and so he has asked me to speak to you this morning, kind of give you some insider information. For those of you who are in a church and you're knowing that you need to appeal to your pastor, you see things going on or you have already begun the process, and I just want to give you some insight from the other side. And two things mainly I want to mention to you, and both have to do with just having a biblical attitude as you approach your pastor, as you approach your ministerial staff or whoever is in your church you need to appeal to. And the first one is that you need to be gracious and kind.

Not condemning, not condescending, but gracious. Remember, first and foremost, that the person you are appealing to is a Christian brother. Now, if you doubt that, then you have a different appeal to make. But if you're convinced that they're a believer, I hope your pastor is, Remember that. Remember that Jesus said, whatever we have done to the least of these his brethren, we've done to him.

You sit down to share your heart and your thoughts, the truths and the convictions that you hold dear. Remember who you're speaking to. You're speaking to the one for whom Christ died. In Colossians chapter 3 it says, therefore as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, long-suffering, bearing with one another and forgiving one another. If anyone has a complaint against another, even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.

But above all these things, put on love, which is the bond of perfection. Remember that you are dealing with a brother in Christ, and treat him appropriately, just as you would treat Christ. Remember also that you are dealing with a leader in the church. We ought to, we need to, we must, according to scripture, show honor to whom honor is due. And the scriptures teach old and New Testament alike to show honor to those who God has placed in authority.

In Romans 13, it talks about respecting those who God has allowed to be by his sovereign will and governmental authority. The New Testament also teaches that we are to show honor to those who are in spiritual authority in the church. If you believe that the person who's in spiritual authority in your church shouldn't be there, he's not qualified, that again, that's a different appeal, a different approach, a different process. The person in spiritual authority, you need to recognize, acknowledge, and respect that authority. Even if you don't believe that they're as knowledgeable as you are, as qualified as you might be, or understand the things that you might understand.

Still, Scripture tells us to show honor to whom honor is due, and we are to honor those who labor among us in the Word. I think back to the Old Testament, we see David, the anointed king of Israel, but yet not the king yet. Saul was the king. And Saul was a very dishonorable man. And twice David had the opportunity to take matters in his own hands and take Saul out.

Yet what did he tell his men I will not raise my hand against the Lord's anointed in the New Testament We see the Apostle Paul before the Sanhedrin and the high priest orders that Paul be struck and he struck and Paul Immediately begins to rebuke the high priests not knowing it was the high priest. The men around him say, what are you doing as the high priest? Paul immediately backpedals. This man isn't a believer. This man does not acknowledge Jesus as a messiah.

And yet because he is a spiritual leader of the children of Israel, Paul says, brothers, forgive me, I didn't know because the scripture tells me not to speak ill against the one who's the high priest. We're not dealing with a wicked king, we're not dealing with an unbelieving high priest, we are dealing with servants of the Most High God. We must show honor to whom honor is due. We must be gracious, we must be kind, we must be forgiving, we must be loving. Remember that we're dealing with Christian brothers and servants of God.

Not only must be gracious, we must be humble. People that look at our situation and hear our story, our testimony about how I was a senior pastor and Don came and appealed to me and then from that we began to appeal to the church and appeal to the deacon body and ultimately left the church and started new work might look at that and say well it didn't work it was a failure. Not appealed yet the church as it was pretty much remains the same. But from my perspective, it was a huge success. And for no other reason, it's because I'm here today and not somewhere else.

See, 10 years ago, I was blissfully ignorant to the situation of the church. I became a minister of youth and education. I began to see eyewitness account of what Vody described yesterday as the rotten fruit and the failures and young people that although I poured my time and energy and effort in their lives, they look no different than anyone else in the world. Making the same mistakes, the same bad choices. No matter how many meetings and how much tweaking we did to the system, the educational system that we had was producing poor results, if any.

So I knew there were problems in the church. I knew the current systems and methodologies and philosophies were not working, but I didn't have any idea how to change it. And then Don Hart came and he appealed to me. He's beginning to describe what he saw as the failures. It resonated with me because I can see them also, but he didn't just tell me about what wasn't working.

He had some ideas about what might work. So Some might look at what we did and see it as failure, but it was a huge success because the Lord used it to change my heart and my mind in my life. And the Lord used Don because he was gracious and he was humble. Here was a man who hadn't been to college to study theology, he'd studied law for some reason, he hadn't been to seminary, I had. Yet he understood things that I didn't understand.

And The Lord had opened his eyes to see truths of Scripture that I hadn't seen yet. Yet he wasn't arrogant or condescending or blaming. He was humble. He was simply coming alongside a Christian brother wanting to help, wanting to appeal, caring for the same sheep that I cared for, desiring the same thing that I desire, and that was to bring glory and honor to Jesus Christ and to build his kingdom. That was his attitude.

A failure in some minds, but in my eyes a huge success and successful because he was humble. Remember who it is you're talking to, A servant of the Lord, a brother in Christ. As you come with humility, remember what it is you're asking him to do. Don's already described it in great terms. You're asking him to listen to you when he's supposed to be the expert on the subject you're talking to him about.

More than that, you're asking your pastor to make radical change. If you haven't gotten that this weekend from what's been talked about, then you've missed it. So we first started talking about these things and Don appealed to me. We began to discuss them and look at the church. My first thought is, well, we just need to tweak the church a little bit.

It just needs tweaking. As we had a look about how we could tweak the church and how we might improve Sunday school and how we might change these things, the more we looked, the more we discussed, the more we studied scripture, I realized it wasn't tweaking that was needed. It was a major overhaul. A change of philosophy, a change of program, a change of leadership structure, and when we really came down to it in our church, we had to rewrite the Constitution. That's how radical change was required.

When you're appealing to your pastor in most of your churches, you're talking about radical change. You're asking him to change his philosophy of education, his philosophy of ministry, his philosophy of leadership. That's what you're asking. So be humble. Remember that you are not asking a trivial and trite thing of this man who has given his life to serve the Lord.

You're asking him to take a huge leap of faith. Well, Don was right when he said, when we began to unfold these things and talk about them, he began to appeal to me. And although my heart was already soft towards these things because the Lord's work and what I had seen, there was a great cost involved. And not just the change of the church and not just the bowels that would have to be fought there and the things that I might have to give up, but I was letting go of tradition. My tradition.

My family's tradition. Probably the most difficult meeting that I had to go through, you weren't even there for Don, it was a lunch I had with my mom and she appealed to me. Why son, why? See for her I was forsaking my upbringing, but you were in public school, We put you in the youth group. You were in Sunday school.

You think I'm a bad mom? Talk about a tough meeting. You were appealing to another human being with family, with a background, with tradition, the denomination, history, paycheck. The denomination, the history, the paycheck. Be humble and be gracious because you're asking him to at least contemplate something that will turn his world upside down.

We also need to be humble because what we are doing, if we're bringing the Lord's message, we're doing the Lord's work, It will only bear fruit if he's in it. Jesus said, I'm the vine, you're the branches. Apart from me, you will bear no fruit. Apart from me, you can do nothing. If you're going to appeal to your pastor and bring what you've learned this weekend with the Lord has been working on your hearts and minds.

If you're going to bring that to him, you must be humbled not just to him, but ultimately you must be humbled before the Lord, prayerfully seeking his help, his words, his guidance. You cannot be gracious, you cannot be kind, You cannot be loving apart from the Lord's help. You will not be humble before the servant of the Lord who you're going to appeal to apart from the Lord's working on your own attitude and heart and mind. And You will not be successful. Whatever that means, the Lord's will and design.

You will not be successful if we not humble ourselves for the Lord and pray and seek his face and ask him to intervene. Was Don's appeal to me successful? Absolutely. There's still a church that we left that by and large didn't change. There weren't a tremendous amount of families that went with us when we left, but for me and my house it was hugely successful.

And so Peele was successful because when he came to me he was gracious. He wasn't haughty, he was humble. Another thing I would ask you to remember, As Don's already instructed you today, as we do the Lord's work, we do it the Lord's way. And when you come before your pastor to appeal, come with the Word. The reason what Don brought to me resonated in my heart and I listened to him and gave him time after time to explain and explain and I was pretty thick-headed and pretty stubborn it took a while was because he kept coming back with scripture.

As we do the Lord's work we always do it with his word. Be prepared. Study. Study to show yourself as a workman who doesn't need to be ashamed when you stand before your pastor and appeal to him. Because if he's a man of God, if he loves the Lord, if He's truly a servant of God, that what is going to resonate most in his heart and mind is the Word of God.

I just want to encourage you this morning, by my own testimony, by our testimony, what you're going to do if you're going to appeal to your pastor, although it will be incredibly difficult, by the world's perspective and by your own perspective it may end up being a failure. The testimony of Scripture and our testimony to you this morning is that we do the Lord's work and we do it the Lord's way. The fruit that He will bring out of it is beautiful and glorious and better than anything else. I encourage you to take heart this morning, to know that the Lord has good plans for you and for your family. If you'll be humble before him, he will use you.

He might even use you to turn the hearts of your pastor. Scott, do we have a minute for a question or are we, I anticipated that this talk might give rise to some questions. I'd really like Scott and John to just help me in answering any questions that you may have if we're able to do so in the next couple of minutes. Yes, sir. And ability and patience.

I found in my church, one of those four services, that as I became aware and experienced one of the most God-blessed periods, I became my own children of God. I saw a happening in the nation, and I'll have over extended trips to the ISIL conference and cast in there. I began to know whether I was in one of these foreign services on a regular basis. The mining and materials and so forth. I'm one of the cadets in that when the microphones are passed around, they do periodically.

I took the liberty to share, that was sort of the theme, how about a glass cup, and that's the issue of having our family together, taking their responsibility, both myself and brothers, because I've been doing this actively working with most of the leaders across the country, so I can share that aspect with you as well. But anyway, I did that, and his response, as I've been able to go back to, he didn't normally respond to what every individual said, and in my case he did, and basically it was that the church affirmed easily those who went to private school, to government school, and to home school. So I took that position, and I may have demonstrated things a little bit, because I found myself in that off-base service that day. So it did somewhat draw a line in the sand and I thought that, you know, at least it brought the issue out. Which I think has some people comments and responded positively and negatively.

They affected it, and it seems I don't know. But I guess my point is that I never was in camp. I still haven't left. I still periodically try to promote this kind of thinking in the future. It's probably a hopeless cause to understand why I'm here, and I wish I was supposed to go to that deeper than that.

Thank you. Thank you for your testimony, brother. One of the things that is really difficult to ascertain is when is it time to leave. You know, if you appeal and that appeal is flatly rejected and it's going nowhere, It's probably time to leave. If you are being received and you're making progress and there looks like there's promise or hope, I would stay the course.

I would continue that appeal. Had John and I not done that together, things wouldn't be as they are today. Continue as long as you're received. If you are just rebuffed, then see that for what it is. It was difficult for us to know when to stop trying to appeal in the church.

That was a tough call because I'm pretty competitive and I really didn't want that church not to change. And I really, you know, they had my heart, and my family was there, and I just loved those folks, and I, in so many ways, I wanted to see that church reform. But there came a time when it was clear it was the best thing for us to start another work. It's just a wisdom application. You seek the Lord in those things.

He'll be faithful if we adhere to his methods. Other questions? Yes sir. Some of us in this room may totally, we have never heard of the term family integrated before ever. We just thought all you got in church and family sounds like a great idea.

And obviously I'm a part of Scott's church, and things we've had some conversations like this, but how would you counsel, first of all I definitely appreciate the grace, the set approach of a humble graciousness to approach a staff. You find yourself in a church that's not family integrated and you're convinced that it's the biblical model. How do you do both definitely the humility and the graciousness of the Christianity that you believe in? Many of us, all of a sudden, you find yourself, and you're in that situation that there's going to be very obvious blatant questions that are going to happen, obvious questions like, well, like you were talking about with your mom and your dad. I'm sure many of us, if not all of us, we're all raised probably in churches that have so many schools that have youth groups, even myself.

All of a sudden you find yourself in this conversation with these people who love the Lord, who totally love the Lord, but they're steeped in this methodology of this program, purpose driven kind of mentality. And you find yourself with these questions of is it a difference between, and We've talked about this, we've talked about this for a while, but I'll just, if you can kind of address this to the people that this is totally due to, what is the difference between that's a good model and this is better, or a difference between that's a wrong model and this is a right model? And how do you get the difference between being so gracious and wanting to be so humble and your approach to saying, I just really feel like the Holy Spirit is leading us in this direction, but then looking at your own family possibly, your own pastor that has totally discipled you, and looking him in the eye and not thinking, well, you're wrong. You know, you are, what they're doing is wrong. And how to differentiate between understanding this is definitely the biblical model, But at the same time, not necessarily for sake of notice, is everything that you're doing is fully in vain?

You know, like it's invalid, it's wrong. Everything that you're producing in a program-driven church is wrong. How do you balance between that? And I guess just for those who may, this is a brand new concept, how do you balance that? Because it definitely are, there are gonna be questions that are gonna arise when you go home and talk to people in a church or even your own family members, we're gonna ask those questions like, am I wrong when you're talking about God raised you in that a week long, are we sinful?

Do we need to totally repent from that? Which I think definitely there is an aspect of repentance. But at the same time, I guess how would you address that I can tell you how I addressed it to my mom, maybe the best example. When your mother asks you if you think she's a bad mother, the answer to that is always no, by the way. No matter what she's done.

I just told my mom, I said, you know, Mom, you walked in the life that the Lord had given you. You were obedient to the Lord, as far as I know. Other things that I would mention to us all is we are where we are in our walk the Lord because of the work the Lord has done. Even Paul says, is by the grace of God, I'm an apostle. It's by the grace of God that we understand what we understand about God, about His word, about His will, about His church.

Only by his grace and his work. If my mother didn't understand that when she was in her mid-30s, it's because the Lord had not sanctified her to that point. Maybe because no one was teaching her that, but she didn't understand that. If she understood that and didn't do it, then she was disobedient. And so the way I dealt with my mother is to say, you know, were you obedient to what the Lord had shown you and taught you what you understood?

Yes. I don't condemn you. The Lord doesn't condemn you. I'm sure not going to. But the same thing I told my mother is, though, but the Lord has sanctified me and shown me in my understanding of Scripture is that these things are right.

These things are true. These things are better. And in some cases, answer your other question, some of these things, at least in my understanding, in my heart, some of these things are better and other things are maybe okay or so. There are other things that I think are clearly wrong. We talked about leadership yesterday, a lot of things that we're talking about yesterday, it's pretty obvious from the speakers, this is the right biblical way.

These other things are just, they're wrong, shouldn't do them. And there's a whole spectrum there. And my suggestion is probably to start with the things that are more obvious when you're dealing with a pastor, not the whole laundry list of 150 things. If Donna brought everything that was wrong with the church to me, I probably would have run the other way. But in terms of how you deal with people, I think, again, it's just that graciousness of saying, you know, this is my understanding, this is what the Lord has shown me, this is what I believe scripture teaches.

And if the Lord hasn't shown that to you, then let me help you, but that doesn't mean I condemn you. Does that make sense? That's kind of dealt with my mom and how I would deal with other people. Again, realizing that we're all a different place in our walk of the Lord, and there are people who understand things that I don't yet understand, and I hope they are patient and gracious with me, and will teach me as well. I don't know if you want to jump in here as well.

Just, You know, we've got to call what is right, right, and what is wrong, wrong. God's not great. There are differences in applications, but when something is right and something is wrong, we need to be bold enough to speak to that. It's interesting. I think the Lord has given me a humility in this area and in talking about it and as I've dealt with you, that's not necessarily how I'm normally characterized by those closest to me.

I'm generally more prophetic and more one who is going to speak the truth and be firm and say, you know, this is black and this is white, here's what we need to do and just, you know, let's be men and do it. And yet you've gotta have balance in those things. If you speak the truth and it's not in love, it won't be blessed. So don't compromise the truth, speak it in love. Give grace, be kind, but speak the truth.

We don't know what the Lord may do five, 10, 15, 20 years from now because of seeds of truth and right and wrong, which are clearly described, but done graciously and with love. Thank you, and just to add one more thing. So loving should be long, we should take a long time, we should be willing to take a long time. You know the race is not to the swift and it takes a long time often for people to rethink what they're doing and so I would just encourage you know long conversations and also lavish conversations meaning lots of content, lots of information, you know. This is not the kind of thing that you do in one meeting, one session.

No, this is a lifelong relationship. By the way, it's a relationship that will span eternity. So take the time. So how long? Well, how long does it take to talk about the history of the church?

Because the history of the church is on the table here. How long does it take to talk about what is biblical discipleship methodology from Genesis to Revelation? It takes a long time. I would just advocate, take a long time. This is not a, You know, there are people that have these hot, you know, one, two, three time conversations and that's it and then they leave that church.

You know, I just think that's wrong. I think it's wrong to treat a brother that way. And so we should have patient conversations that take, you know, a long time if necessary and they should be lavish in the sense that you should cover all the subjects. You know, I find it's very difficult for believers to learn how to even just think Christianly about any subject and that should be one subject, that should be one, two, three, four meetings just to talk about how to think Christianly about things. And so loving, long, lavish, that's my laundry list for how do you communicate in a situation like that.

You asked is it, the other part of your question was, is this a question of right or wrong or is it a question of good and better, you know, that kind of thing. Well, again, I guess I have to, I would just have to ask the question, where do you get the idea that many of our structures are appropriate? Where do you get that idea? Where do you get the idea from the Bible for youth groups? Is that a biblical idea?

And my answer to that question is no, it's not a biblical idea. It's totally foreign to scripture. So my view is yes, It's a difference between right and wrong. But at the same time, I think there should be much humility in a statement like that because none of us are ever gonna get it all right anyway. So I think we should be humble.

But at the same time, I think we should just be honest and say where do you get the idea for your youth groups? Well, you're not you're not gonna find you're just not gonna find it here. You have to go somewhere else to get that and So my view is that it is wrong. It's a wrong way to disciple people because there's no pattern for it in the Bible, there's no principle that communicates, and there's certainly no command for it. So why are we doing that?

And the other question is, is it right to replace the biblical structures with the unbiblical ones? Well that's obviously not right. And that's what's happened in our modern churches. We've taken what's commanded We've set that aside and we've layered in what seems right to us doing You know to to handle the the issues that you know are on the table in our culture. So I hope that helps a little bit.

Well, okay, we're gonna make a transition. Thank you so much, guys. I appreciate that.